AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

[MyCyanAnt]

I can’t be the only one who has noticed this. I went to genuinely average comprehensive schools and had parents who just dgaf like most in UK. I went to medical school where it seemed like this upbringing put you in a small minority, now an ultra high earner from own business but still do part time work as a GP. DC are 12 and 14.

Whenever the topic of education comes up with other doctors/professionals they will say stuff like it’s the child not the school who determines the outcome, we’re not pushing DC, we’re letting DC pick their school etc

However when it comes down to it none of them ever put their money where their mouth is. It won’t always be Eton but it will almost always be either a private, grammar or high performing comp in expensive catchment area instead of a genuinely average comp.

It’s a similar story with paying for tutors and other parents DC being interested in prestigious but completely unrelated careers e.g. Doctor or investment banking who have obviously been guided by parents.

I do the same but I feel like I’m an outlier in that I don’t lie about it, I’m obviously paying/gaming things so DC are much more likely to get a top job. I don’t see what’s wrong with admitting it yet it’s such a sensitive subject with some.

In moral worth, everyone is equal.

I believe that human rights (globally) and civic rights (within a polity) should flow from that, ie are equal.

I think it’s hard to identify other ways in which everyone is equal. What ways do you see?

I also don’t think I have a human right or civic right to have the same opportunity as everyone else. Becuase I think that involves too great an infringement on the liberties of others to make it so.

And when equality has been tried (or at least, when it’s been the radical motivating ideology), it’s led to crushing destruction of the things that support human flourishing. Freedom of thought, association, family life, life. Things that are not just the preserve of the rich but matter to us all. No good has come of it.

It is absolutely a thing. I have experienced a family member and his friends turning their back (after I left the room) on my DH (then boyfriend) because he is a “rich southerner”. I have had a very different life to many of my friends and family. I have mixed with people of different social backgrounds, races and religion far more than my white working class family and friends. I see the level of prejudice that some of my white working class friends and family have. It’s shocking.

There is nothing stopping anyone in this country being successful. I have gone from free school meals to a high earning City professional. And the comment that still sticks in my mind now, which was made by my first boss twenty six years ago, is that you get on with everyone. That’s been my key to success.

My current boss is American. She has noticed the class prejudice that exists in UK society against those that are perceived as having more/being from a higher socio economic background.

If you want your kids to be successful, teach them to get on with everyone and have respect for everyone.

If you want your kids to be successful, teach them to get on with everyone and have respect for everyone.

Very wise words.

*taught

Do they think it odd that one's in a grammar and another in a private ?

🙄

This is totally normal for many many families.

There is nothing stopping anyone in this country being successful. I have gone from free school meals to a high earning City professional. And the comment that still sticks in my mind now, which was made by my first boss twenty six years ago, is that you get on with everyone. That’s been my key to success.

That is a remarkable achievement. What do you think it was that made you the sort of person who could get on with people so well and achieve so much?

Absolutely not. It’s not unusual to have siblings split between the two schools. The grammar is in the top ten performing state schools in the country and very hard to get into. I asked my DS whether he wanted to go elsewhere for sixth form and he said why would I leave?!

Is that all you could respond with?!

For me, it’s very natural to try to get on with everyone. It seems strange that other people don’t. Women are particularly bad about keeping to their “clicks”. I find this incredibly annoying.

As far as being successful, that’s down to determination. I’ve had set backs but I’ve picked myself up and tried again. Too
many people give up at the first hurdle.

I let both my DC choose their secondary school. They made different choices. Even now, as adults, they're happy with the choices they made.

I get what you mean. However, when you say ‘most parents’, do you have a source for this or what is it based on?

There is nothing stopping anyone in this country being successful. I have gone from free school meals to a high earning City professional. And the comment that still sticks in my mind now

Hasn't social mobility gone backwards though now? I think it’s harder these days due to the costs of housing and education.

Even FSM criteria has changed, you have to have a very low income to qualify now.

@Mosaic123 who let's their child choose their school at 11?
Me.
My parents.
One of my offspring rejected a school aged 4. They didnt like the vibes, nor did we. They did the rounds for secondary and immediately chose the school that they wanted and were adamant that that was where they were going. At the age of 11 kids know what goes on in schools and are perfectly capable of choosing the right school for them.

I passed the 11+. I was then given a choice of 4 schools which had to be put in order. My parents gave me the form and let me make the choice. I knew which one I wanted and I was lucky enough to get my first choice. I was the only one from my school to go there. I wasn't in the slightest concerned. My friends went to others on the list.

The reason schools have open days is not just for the parents, it's for the prospective students too. Its not about 0.02% advantage in the results table. It's about the right school for the child. Chances are, that a highly academic kid will choose a highly academic school. A sporty kid will choose a school with excellent sports facilities.
I know a drama mad child who has just moved to a performance academy. The child chose to move school, not the parents. They did support the decision. They want their child to be happy.

I did research when taking my undergraduate course on educational outcomes. Parental educational levels, income and ethnicity are some of the biggest factors. DH went to one of the best fee paying schools in the country and I went to a much worse than standard comp. We met at work at a similar level junior staff wise. He is from a long line of University educated folk, wealthy landowners I was first in the family. But my poorly educated Mother had read the complete works of Shakespeare as a child when ill in bed for a year aged 12 to give an indication of who she was. I’m also mixed race, Chinese heritage on my Dads side and they value education. Chinese and Indian children have the best results overall. There will of course always be outliers.

DH took some persuading to not educate the children privately. I knew my children and had more confidence. DS and DD went to slightly worse than average state schools. Easy to get to and local friends. DS got top marks in his A levels and has ended up completing a degree apprenticeship so zero debt and had a guaranteed job. DD sadly died just on the brink of adulthood so we will never know what she could have achieved.

I feel many middling children who really need extra help need those small classes in a private school. The gifted can shine anywhere as long as the school is not dangerous.

Overall what cannot be taught is innate personality. DS can get on with anyone
knows what to say and when to say it and when not to say a word. I’m like this and it sees you through life. I have met many incredibly gifted people in my career in higher education. I don’t think many people know what truly gifted means. I’m above average but not gifted, DH is and has put it in to practice by research that has had the potential to save millions of lives.

I met a young woman paying her way through University working on a checkout a few days ago. Lovely young woman, very enthusiastic and happy to chat about her studies. She was worried about graduating next year. I said you have something that can’t be taught you are personable, just remember that.

@Boohoo76 I agree with trying to get on with everyone, that’s exactly how I am. I can have as much decent interaction with a Bishop, top selling author, BBC journalist, politicians as my local butcher, baker, candlestick maker. Have interacted with all the above except candlestick makers, sadly in short supply these days.

I'm asking coz i wondered what the kids' take on it was. I went to a girls' grammar many moons ago and it was like that at my school . Big academic families with 6+ kids all in different types of school, some at mine, some at the local fee paying school, and I always wondered what their own take on it was. I never asked anyone. Mind you, back then there werw scholarships, so maybe the ones at private schools were scholarship kids.

I completely agree with OP. Probably it mainly exists in areas with a lot of selection, whether by postcode for desirable comprehensives or academically for grammar and private school entry.
It consists of two things: firstly, the sheer lengths people go to in order to gain an advantage for their child; secondly the sheer lengths they go to in order to deny their actions, by claiming to be in favour of educational equality, or have no interest in competition.
I can well understand that if you have the means to pay for private education for your children all the way through and have a nearby school that suits you, you will likely be innocent of the whole thing.
I think 'gaming the system' was an unfortunate phrase to have used and has got people's backs up.
But in essence, OP is absolutely correct.

We did. We took him to several open days. He told us his preference.

The one he preferred was mostly because the teachers engaged with him during the tours etc. It was upper sixth pupils escorting the tours who were very talkative, chatty, etc., and there was clear respect between them and the teachers, i.e. when they brought their group to a classroom, they knocked (even though the door was open), and asked the teacher(s) if it was OK to bring in the group (typically just 2 or 3 parents/children). The teachers generally were very engaging and proactive with DS and other children, i,e, when we went into the Maths room/display, the teacher came straight over, introduced himself to our DS, sat down with him and played a Maths board game with him for a few minutes. Similar happened in a science lab where a teacher came over and did a simple experiment with him. It was like that throughout the open day with teachers being very proactive in introducing themselves, talking to DS, showing him things, etc. Even the head was trying his utmost to greet everyone individually at the entrance door, having a quick chat with them, making the kids feel welcome and at home etc.

Literally all the other schools were very different, with it being generally older pupils talking to us/DS, year 6/7 pupils doing the tours who were typically not very confident/chatty, didn't really know what was expected, i.e. kept asking us what we'd like to see/where we'd like to go, etc. In classrooms/displays, teachers were typically in huddles chatting to each other, didn't introduce themselves and only chatted when a parent made the first move. Barely any teachers talked directly to our DS - it was as if he was invisible to him. Head was nowhere to be seen except when he was on the stage doing his "talk".

Afterwards, DS was very clear he preferred the school with the "nice" teachers! It turned out to be the right decision, as that ethos carried on throughout the 7 years he was there. Lots of respect between teachers and pupils, very little disruption, an attitude of most kids wanting to learn, etc.

If DS had "chosen" a school that we didn't think was right for him, we'd have tried to persuade him otherwise, but his first preference matched ours and it worked out well for him. Because it was "his" choice, I think he felt more invested in the whole experience.

My oldest DS asked to do the 11+ and try for the grammar as some of his friends were doing the same, although hardly any of them got in. He was already at a private all through where he could of stayed but he didn’t want to. He wanted to go to what is perceived as the best school in the area.

My youngest didn’t want to do the 11+ so we didn’t push him. We knew it was a long shot and we didn’t want to make him unhappy.

My daughter wanted to go to our local girls' Grammar School, because that's where most of the girls in her primary school aspired to go.

The children who didn't get a place in one of the Grammar Schools, or weren't academic enough for a Grammar School, went to independent schools, unless their parents couldn't pay the fees.

The last resort was the local comprehensive school which, as comprehensive schools go, is not too bad and gets some good results.

However, no child I have known in the area would have chosen to go to the local comprehensive if they could have gone to a Grammar or independent school.

That's not gaming the system, it's doing your best for your children.

Of course they are reluctant to acknowledge the help they get from having a system that acts as a club to keep good jobs within the higher strata. Private education is a club, like the masons. It’s very much about helping each other and retaining power

And the connections you make in your private education bubble. Families aren’t paying 30k a year per child for just better maths tuition. You’re buying into the system. That’s fine but be honest.

There is nothing stopping anyone in this country being successful. I have gone from free school meals to a high earning City professional. And the comment that still sticks in my mind now, which was made by my first boss twenty six years ago, is that you get on with everyone. That’s been my key to success.

Likewise, I left a crap comp with literally not a single "pass". That was due to extreme/prolonged bullying throughout my years at the crap comp. I'd gone from a friendly/confident straight A pupil upon leaving primary school to a mere shadow aged 16, no friends, no qualifications, no future really.

I dusted myself down and got a crap basic admin job in a local small accountancy practice (father and son!!) under the YTS scheme! Close enough that I could walk to work as I couldn't afford bus fares etc. The dizzy heights of talking the post, making the teas/coffees and filing! There were a couple of older people working there (50+) who took me under their wing and without me realising it were bringing me out of myself, starting to build my confidence etc., even just by talking to me like normal human beings (such a difference after most human interactions during school being abuse and bullying!). They must have realised I'd had traumatic teenage years! They started "forcing" me to talk to other people, i.e. other staff, clients, suppliers, etc., in just simple ways at first, but it was all baby-steps to boost my confidence. I started to realise that lots of people were actually "normal" and nice, and that abuse and bullying wasn't normal in the way it had become normalised for me at school! Part of that was telling me how to be friendly and nice back to people and urging me to be friendly and to get on with everyone. I really took it on board. I went from being a timid "mouse" who tried to avoid people (unsurprisingly!) to being quite sociable, friendly, chatty, and my self confidence literally improved week by week!

At the end of the YTS period, the firm kept me on. Even the father/son owners started to "see" me, the opposite of when I started when they had no part in my recruitment as they'd left it to the senior receptionist to "deal with" the YTS recruitment firm to take on a YTS! To cut a long story short, I did O and A levels by a mix of self study and evening classes. Then I did accountancy exams and finally qualified as an chartered accountant. Not bad for someone who left school with no O levels!

Over the years I'd met loads of people, always been friendly with them. That led directly to two fundamental job changes where I got offered jobs that weren't even advertised to anyone else, as I was a "shoe in" just by knowing the manager/owner respectively. Neither I'd say were "friends" in the true sense, but they were people I knew, and had been "friendly" with at the time.

Same when I started my own business. At the start, I was advertising madly for new clients as I'd left work and needed an income! I noticed someone who I'd met years before through work had set up his own business, and I popped into his office one day when I was passing just to say "hi". I'd only spoken to him a couple of times, work related, but I'd been friendly and pleasant (as always!) and he'd been the same back to me. That led to him appointing me as his accountant, but more importantly, over the subsequent years, he recommended me to several of his friends/relatives/clients, and he/his recommendations ended up forming a huge portion of my client base - about a third!! All because I just happened to pop into his office one day as I'd met him previously. I'd never have had the confidence to walk into anyone else's office who I'd never met!

I got my office in the same way. I'd been looking for a small office close enough from home to walk, but anything decent was too expensive or got snapped up as soon as it hit the open market. I mentioned it to a random client, who knew someone who was closing his business, and made an introduction - I went along to see the guy, and we agreed to me taking over the office, buying his equipment, etc., he introduced me to the landlord who was happy to transfer the lease to me, all done and dusted within an hour! No estate agents, no open market competition etc - everyone happy! All because of a mutual business contact!

I think life is all about meeting people and making contacts. Whether work, social life, romantic partners, etc - you need to get "out there" to meet people, be friendly with him, get on with them, etc. You don't need to be immediate "best friends", just make contacts, talk to people. More importantly don't give them any reasons to dislike you, i.e. don't be nasty in any way. People won't forget if you've ignored them, been unpleasant to them, in any way, etc., and that may cut off a future benefit to you. Yes, lots of people you meet you'll never see again, but if and when you do come across someone again, they'll remember you if you were pleasant to them and more likely to "help" you out, however tenuous/brief your previous encounters were.

The old adage of "it's now what you know it's who you know" is very true! Doesn't matter what social class you are, where you live, your background, your education, your job, etc. You CAN improve your lot by getting out there, being friendly with everyone, etc., make contacts, etc. It may not guarantee huge success, but certainly improves your chances rather than staying in your own small circle, never trying anything new/different, never bothering to meet new people, etc.

State grammar here. DC haven't used any of their peers for jobs. Youngest has a degree apprenticeship at a major investment bank simply due to hard work and impressing at interview. No connections at all.