AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

[MyCyanAnt]

I can’t be the only one who has noticed this. I went to genuinely average comprehensive schools and had parents who just dgaf like most in UK. I went to medical school where it seemed like this upbringing put you in a small minority, now an ultra high earner from own business but still do part time work as a GP. DC are 12 and 14.

Whenever the topic of education comes up with other doctors/professionals they will say stuff like it’s the child not the school who determines the outcome, we’re not pushing DC, we’re letting DC pick their school etc

However when it comes down to it none of them ever put their money where their mouth is. It won’t always be Eton but it will almost always be either a private, grammar or high performing comp in expensive catchment area instead of a genuinely average comp.

It’s a similar story with paying for tutors and other parents DC being interested in prestigious but completely unrelated careers e.g. Doctor or investment banking who have obviously been guided by parents.

I do the same but I feel like I’m an outlier in that I don’t lie about it, I’m obviously paying/gaming things so DC are much more likely to get a top job. I don’t see what’s wrong with admitting it yet it’s such a sensitive subject with some.

Of course if you can afford it you game the system. My dc went to average schools, but I paid for private dyslexia tutoring, music lessons, hobbies … I spent what i could afford supporting my dc and I’m open about it. They also learned other soft skills which my now adult dc are very grateful for eg they helped host dinner parties and always got to join in due to exh’s work, thus on joining the military formal dinners were a breeze, small talk etc. They also said holidays visiting castles, stately homes and cathedrals helped them, moaned at the time!

I think most people what they can, there’s just a subset that doesn’t care, I’ve met them, those dc are the absent a lot, and now my dc tell me those girls in their classes have children, whereas none of those who went to university have …

Being relaxed about it is fine if the schools on offer are all of a reasonable quality.

However, when even Ofsted says that the school your child is allocated a place at, isn't safe, then it would be neglectful as a parent not to worry about it and do everything possible to mitigate the risk.

I’ve had conversations about this many’a time with colleagues. To be honest we can tell who the weaker students are who essentially were dragged through a levels by constant tuition because when they get to uni, that isn’t a thing anymore and they just don’t perform as well. Uni is a bit of an equaliser in that sense. You could maybe pay someone to try and tutor you through an undergrad I guess? But it’s not something I’ve come across. They’re typically the 2:1 or even 2:2 students.

The first class students work their socks off generally speaking, or are naturally really very talented in the subject therefore probably didn’t need extra tuition to be good.

Dd got a first. She was tutored in A level chemistry simply in order to gain the entrance requirements for a Pharmacology degree.

Her teachers at secondary school were not Chemistry graduates and had a lack of subject knowledge of organic chemistry. We engaged a tutor to fill that gap. Most people I know round here who had tutors at A level had them due to a shortage of A level teachers with STEM specialism, lots of gap filling going on, rather than tutoring to keep up.

Yes, she could have worked harder and learned an important topic herself, but we had money to throw at it (£650 in total 'til she reached "comfortably confident" - i know people dont like talking about money, but that was what it cost us to fill the gap left by school), and we felt it was worth every penny.

A relative of mine who went to the local comp is currently at Cambridge on probably one of the hardest college/course combos to be accepted onto. No tutoring, just naturally bright and interested in his subject. My advice would be not to give your ds a chip on their shoulder about “posh twats”. My relative certainly hasn’t had an issue. There’s no them and us between the ex state and ex private school pupils. He just needs to go and work hard, enjoy himself and he might be surprised with who he makes friends with.

I have a similar background to OP, now live a firmly middle class lifestyle and totally agree with OPs observations.

I went to a grammar school, when I was young private tutoring to pass the exam was not commonplace, whereas now it the norm. My son is in a high performing state primary school and extensive private tutoring is an open secret - people don't generally talk about it and like to pretend their average ability child is just naturally capable of high grades. In year 1 at least a quarter of his classmates were receiving private tutoring - this went up to at least half in year 2. By year 4 almost all the children are privately tutored in KS2 in preparation for the 11+. This means that 'average' ability students gain a huge advantage over those from poorer families who can't afford the tuition even though those kids may actually be brighter.

I don't agree with it, especially for such young children, and do not pay for private tuition though we could afford it. My son is naturally very bright and is around the top of his class academically but he often feels he is behind and like he has to work harder to keep up which is demotivating. My unpopular opinion is that private tuition, especially at primary age, should be banned and we should go back to children being assessed on their actual ability rather than what their parents can afford...

Maybe we should. In the 1940s posh (private) schools did a sweep of local ordinary schools and had a nice chat to the children. If some child was running the class newspaper or something similar there would be a scholarship offer.

I find it hard to believe this was a totally fair system where nobody got left behind, but it was pretty much impossible to “game” for sure.

Read Jilly Cooper's book Class. It's funny. The upper middles, unlike other classes, are the silliest, she thinks. They aren't upper, so are the most ambitious, and play a funny game of pretending to be cool about that sort of thing ,while paddling like mad underneath. You should read it. It's funny. She considers working and upper class people more solid in their identity..Of course that's all a bit stereotyping now, but I think ,like all good stereotypes, there's some truth to it. It's even more true now, with so many more people having arrived in that bracket with widened opportunities for social mobility in the last 50 years. I know a number of people from school who were unbelievably tuned in to their upwardly social.signifiers and I was genuinely surprised when I grew up and found many had working class grandparents. Class in UK is weird I think. My best friend at school was lively, but she spoke like the Queen and her father, a major player in a particular field. was unbelievably precious about his position. It wasnt until years later I foind out her grandparents were from a particularly poor area of the NW. I was shocked. I thought they were at least several generations back of Eton. So I think the upper middles have always acted the goat a bit. Much of our literature is built on the humour that comes out of class gradation in UK.

I agree that people do downplay the reasons they send their children to private schools but perhaps because they don’t want to come across smug. My boss always said he’d never send his kids to private school as he went and didn’t have a great time, but once his kids reached secondary age I remember him saying “that’s just what you do isn’t it”. I disagree with the take that most parents don’t care about their kids education and just send them to the closest comprehensive. This is a very privileged take - what options are there for most parents who cannot afford private or to move to a more expensive area with better state schools? Also, in my area the schools (despite all being a bit crap) are still so oversubscribed, you’d do very well to end up in your closest.

‘Game’ education? The title of your post is ridiculous. I wouldn’t worry about anything if I were you. You clearly haven’t ’gamed’ anything.

Love how succinctly you put this!

I'm not saying what I believe or don't believe. I'm just saying what an estate agent told me people were doing to get their children into a 'good' school.

What an odd post, that’s quite a big chip on your shoulder there. Are you really encouraging your DS and your Oxbridge material pupils to “stick it to the posh twats”? Well, they might be bright enough to get in but they won’t have many friends with that attitude.

This is a truly odd thread.
I'm not sure if posters are smugly boasting. Or bitching.

As the above poster has noted, education exposes class insecurities. And other insecurities. I think it's only certain sectors of society that have these insecurities. I could start with the present labour cabinet. A lot of them went to private schools but want to destroy the very system which got them to where they are. Lucy Powell is in denial about her family background and education, but has already been caught out telling porky pies.

Now we discover that doctors are deeply into lying and gaming the system. Id never imagined it honestly. But possibly it's only doctors who went to state school. Its odd.

I went to grammar school and I am comfortable in my own skin. 99% of posters on here are not comfortable in their own skin. They have fomo or something. Keeping up with the joness, god knows.
They haven't given birth to children, they have created a little mini project to be worked on.

People like Jacob rees-mogg are comfortable in their own skin. They have always had private education and take it for granted that's what they will do. No fiddling, no bitching. They just do it.

People who have no choice but the local comp are mainly comfortable in their own skin. They just get on with it. Some are consumed with envy of those who can afford better, most aren't.

I think posters need to take a good look in the mirror. Being a nice person is more important than promoting your little mini project that you can boast about at your middle class dinner parties.

P.s. people soon get fed up of boasting about mini projects. Only a very small group of people are interested. Others find it tedious.

I think many white working class parents are negligent when it comes to education. Luckily my mum wasn’t and she did everything she could to stop our modest house being repossessed on the basis that we would have ended up living in a council house on a very rough estate with an equally rough comp to go with it. She managed to keep us in a reasonable comp (although nothing like some of the comps in London and the Home Counties where I live now).

I sent both of mine to independent prep. The main reason being the excellent wrap around care and extra curriculars which meant that I could keep working and which wasn’t available at our local state primary. My oldest goes to a top performing state grammar and my youngest is in an independent senior school. Am I gaming the system? No, I am doing the best for my kids within the means that I have. That’s what my mum tought me to do.It just happens that I have more money than her to do it with.

You sound like an excellent Teacher & well done to you both.

May I ask why you think it's appropriate to say your son is 'ready to stick it to the posh twats' I'm sure your son will achieve the necessary results & go on to study at Cambridge. I find it sad he is being encouraged to begin his course with a chip on his shoulder while harbouring bitterness towards those born with more opportunities than most.

He would benifit more from understanding nobody knows what goes on in the lives of those with more privilege & it's wrong to judge people you don't know.

Incidentally, your son may become best friends with the most privileged student in his year or he may even marry one of them.

I wish him all the best.

Are you really a teacher? That is worrying because you come across as extremely prejudice. Also, how are you working out whether the “posh twats” went to private school or not? I know plenty of people who went to state comps who have RP accents. And, if you are a teacher, then your DC are more privileged than many. My dad left school at 14, has no qualifications and was on a low salary all his life.

He’ll also discover that by attending Oxbridge he instantly becomes one of those posh twats who need it sticking to them, in the eyes of a lot of our culture and officialdom.

Also, immense unearned privilege to have been born with his genes and parents at the time and place in history that he was, for which he should not be begrudged.

Ha ha yes! I remember being verbally abused exiting my Oxbridge college - similar words to ‘posh twat’. I was a first generation university student from a Northern comp not that I explained myself.

Realistically, no one age 18/19 goes round boasting of their school/background so it’s quite likely you may not discover or discover quickly, what anyone’s background is. I find it odd that someone who makes this remark would be encouraging students and their own child to apply. Oxbridge makes a good attempt to encourage applications from the brightest of students from all backgrounds. That was my experience more than 30 years ago and the situation has only got better in the intervening years.

I sincerely hope not and you're just a brain damaged individualist.

This form of thinking is Victorian, colonialist in the worst application and the upholding of a system that benefits a few.

You obviously think it's normal to believe that all people are not equal. And it's frankly disturbing

This is incredibly naive, I do you also believe in reverse racism?

They won't make friends because of reverse snobbery BECAUSE THATS NOT A REALLY THING. They will.be surrounded by those that think it's their right to be there and have a self selecting code based on years of private school.and old names.

I do not understand the continued bootlicking of the upper classes int his country.

Our politics are corrupt and for sale to the highest bidder due to the incestuous nature of the upper classes.

The elagaltarian nature of education is just total B's now anyway.

The middle classes are in for a HUGE wake up.call in the next few decades

This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier. We sent DC to independent schools because we wanted them to enjoy life and embrace all that was on offer. Also both working and in rural locations few schools then did after school clubs etc . We had no game plan and we never forced them to pursue remunerative degrees but they are good citizens . Looking back we were a bit clueless but happy with our choices … for example both were cathedral choristers etc .. pretty niche and very few became high earners … so in fact many parents just go with the flow and take opportunities where they can this is also the case for those in the state system … maybe they are posh twats … tho you would never no it… but at least they do not judge

Does the OP want a Harrison Bergeron style setup where we ensure "fairness" by handicapping clever kids so that they are on the same level as the dumb kids? Sounds like it.

Everyone has very different starts in life, for both the better and the worse. You'll never ever change that. Get over it rather than wng around trendy words like "privilege". Some of you should leave people alone for a change.

I’m not British and I kind of agree that in the UK education isn’t seen as important as in other usually poorer countries. In the uk you have the benefit system to fall on if you’re not a high achiever in life where in other countries there isn’t such thing or not livable. In other countries education is seen as almost guaranteed way out of poverty, here not necessarily. The uk gov is the only one that fines parents for not sending their kids to school - why? Does the gov think a big number of parents would not bother to send their children to school if they weren’t forced to? And finally the govs spent on education is appalling! 30 children in the class, schools in debt, parents being asked for donations, very limited places in schools for children with special needs. It just doesn’t seem that education is a top priority here at least for the government.

No, it’s sincerely what I believe.

I also think if you polled this board on the practical examples I gave in the post that immediately followed, each would get majority support.

If you disagree, which do you think most people would disagree with?

Oh, by the way. Covid vaccines. We had to prioritise how to roll them out. Did you support equality of opportunity (maybe a lottery)? Or some sort of system based on who could benefit most from them (say, prioritizing old people and the infirm?).