Trans widow and feel so much pain for her

[Hotandbithered]

I know this is not actually my grief but DH has a good friend who we have known throughout our marriage, let’s call him Steve.

Steve was married to Jess and had two children.

We spent a lot of time with them over the years. Camping trips, dinners, bbqs, birthdays. Steve was your classic sort of male really. He was quite attractive, funny, polite, well educated and both he and Jess very successful, had a beautiful home.

Anyway getting to the point. Almost out of the blue (to us at least), a few years ago Steve began transitioning. He is not short of money and has had facial surgery multiple times, paid for himself. He is extremely supportive of the trans community and recognises he is lucky he can access this sort of treatment.

Jess stayed with him through this, went to the appointments, talked to their kids about what this meant (primary age) and tried to stick in the marriage. It’s now broken down and they are doing their best to be great co parents to their children.

Jess’ grief is immeasurable. This couple always seemed so in love, so respectful of one another. She says she feels like her husband has died yet she has to experience this new person in his place, like he’s been stolen from her. I too have felt this obviously to a much lesser degree, but its truly life changing to even be affected by it even a little bit.

I should add that I have no strong views on what or who people choose to be but I suppose I am shocked that a person can live a lie for so long and especially put their children through it? DH has tried to be supportive but I think struggles more with Steve’s new interests more than anything, as in they don’t have much to talk about anymore as Steve is consumed by this (I suppose understandably) and his focus on what makes him a woman rather than anything else.

I don’t know what I am asking really. Just feel grief for Jess and for DH and wonder if others have been through similar how they navigated it.

Your mantra has no power here. Mumsnet reflects that most people don’t actually believe men are women just because they say so.

Nope, not homophobic or transphobic. Because unlike children who grew up from babies in a same sex family, these children spent part of their childhood knowing their father, celebrating Father's Day, calling him dad, to all of a sudden that has now changed, leaving them confused. That's selfish, it is cruel and it is not at all right to do that to an innocent child. It's hateful and cruel.

They 'eXiSt' as the sex they are: male. What we want, is for them to stop being so selfish and consider the innocent children before their own wants. To not force their poor distraught and confused children who lost their father 'mummy'. To just for once, consider someone else first, instead of narcissistically centring themselves at the expense of an innocent child.

Ok thank you. I see what you are saying.

So as ‘gender’ is entirely subjective, internally experienced, self declared and has nothing to do with biological sex, the rest of us are not obliged to acknowledge or allow it to impinge on situations where it is biological sex that is the important factor.

As ‘father’ is a biologically determined role and name, Steve’s kids should not be asked or obliged to call him ‘mum’. It is cruel to deprive this kids of a man to call ‘dad’ and just demonstrates his growing narcissism and obsession.

Judith Butler has built a career advocating for disorders mens wishes so no thank you.

And their natural behaviour- just gives it away every time. The way they gesticulate, treat other people (esp women), and the attitude - all male

Rather shocking to see people leaping on the word 'widow' rather than the much huger distortion of a male person thinking he can be a woman. TRAs are usually the first to say that words mean whatever you want them to.

'Gender' is a misogynistic man-made social construct that doesn't exist. It was created by the patriarchy to keep women in line.

The only thing that exists is sex. And sex is real, proven, biological, tangible, and binary.

'Intersex' are either man, or woman.

It's not a 'third sex'.

Sex is binary, and intersex proves sex is binary.

Sex is why women are oppressed
Gender is how they are oppressed

I’d tell Jess that he’s their father, he’s delusional, and he’s destroying her family. I’d let her vent away to me and be a shoulder to cry on.

If he was having an affair I’d be telling her similar, minus the ‘mum (name)’ nonsense.

Meanwhile DH would have told him in no uncertain terms what he thinks of his behaviour towards his wife and DC.

His behaviour has changed. For the last two decades he was not spending the families money on his obsession with himself or demanding those around him pretend he is the opposite sex.

Horrible for all involved. Poor family.

in terms of semantics, however I do not understand why trans widow is problematic? These women self identify as widows even if biologically the spouse is not dead. It's on par with men calling themselves women when biological they are not. If you support a 'identify yourself as whatever' it's only fair to support it across the board.

I have been through the "my husband as the man who I married has died but his body is still here and I have no recognised right to mourn him". I was lucky that mine was returned to me by new drugs and surgical intervention.

As her good friend I'd urge you to support her in her right to mourn, making it clear all the time that you understand that position. I'm sure you're doing this already. Her mourning will never end, because he is still alive and involved in her life through their children.

Regarding him, unless he was a friend that I loved from the bottom of my heart I would need to cut him out of my life because of the pain and trouble his desire to self-actualise has caused and will always cause to his wife and children.

Lol you realise Judith Butler is a mens rights activist and a laughing stock, right. You are not discerning with sources, that's for sure!

No, the number of femphobic and misogynistic people here is nauseating. This is about the innocent children who are now forced to deny part of their childhood and call their father, someone who they called dad and celebrated Father's day with, 'mummy'. It's cruel and selfish, but as usual, children are collateral damage and all some of you think about is the adult!

Jesus, its like reddit vomited.

Its pretty ironic to claim we dont understand science or biology and then ignorantly and pretty offensively, suggest people with DSDs are not male or female.

Good clear reply.

Exactly!

It is not the term itself that is the issue, it is the fact that it is used to recognise women as harmed by men.

They're loads of books explaining this far greater than I ever could, I recommend reading Gender Trouble by Judith Butler.

Judith Butler who argues in support of paedophilia? That Judith Butler?

I don't think the phrase widow should be used for this.

I doubt we will ever know who the husband felt about his own identity at the time of marriage and when his children were born. Was he someone who felt he was born in the wrong body, or is it a feeling that is more recent. I have never come across this with anyone I know, but have known several gay men and lesbians who were married or in long term opposite sex relationships, from days when there was less acceptance of the sexuality.

The wife, a friend of the OP, has lost a lot. So has the rest of the family. I can see why a friend who you thought was in a lifetime relationship which has in a way been lost is something to grieve, just as you might if a couple whose marriage you thought was a strong one end up separating.

So:

Women on here standing up for trans widow Jess are

• insane
• transphobic
• living in an echo chamber
• nasty
• pretend feminists

Do you include the OP and Jess in those categories?

What advice and support would you offer Jess? And her children?

Or is your sane, non transphobic, kind, real feminism reserved for transexual “Mummy” Steve?

This is personality, isn't it? I am 65. When I was born most people in the UK and other wealthy countries conformed to quite rigid gender stereotypes, but I was very fortunate to grow up in a period when many older than me challenged those and other restrictions that had no logical basis. Women finally gained entry to many professions that had been closed to them before. Lesbians couldn't be fired or chucked out of their accommodation or denied custody of their children after a divorce because of their sexuality. We had the lovely Lego advert encouraging girls to play with a toy that could have been seen as just for boys.

And then it all went pear-shaped again.

1950s: You like climbing trees and getting muddy in spite of being a girl. There is something wrong with you. You must stop pretending to be a boy and put this dress on.

2010s/2020s: You like climbing trees and getting muddy in spite of being assigned female at birth. There is something wrong here - clearly you have a boy brain in a girl body. Not to worry, we can sort this out. Put these camo shorts on and have this buzzcut. We'll get you signed up for the gender clinic asap.

AGP people exist, there are some posters on here trying to deny AGP existence, posting links to crossdressing websites that deny AGP existence.

It amazes me that people are open to the idea that anything can become a fetish, but a man being aroused by the thought of being the opposite sex? No definitely not, that is the only thing that can definitely never ever be a fetish.

The men who understand that they have AGP usually snap out of medical transition. Denying their AGP just leads to self-harm.