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Anyone else in the South East worried about Andy Burnham bringing in a land tax?

944 replies

Beachbooks · 22/06/2026 12:17

With it looking likely that Andy Burnhan will be the next PM, I was interested to see if anyone else in London / the south east were worried about potential tax raises specifically around the land tax rather than stamp duty ?

A lot of my friends who live locally are worrying that he will make the land tax for the South East so high in proportion to other areas of the UK that it will be financially very difficult to afford but then also extremely difficult to sell!!

BTW we have very standard house and garden but we live in an expensive area

OP posts:
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KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 20:30

NorthXNorthWest · 28/06/2026 20:08

Who are you in this fantasy, Robin Hood?

So some homeowners should pay a substantial annual tax on gains they haven't realised, based on a caricature of homeowners and a perceived slight you've conjured up in your mind, rather than on money they've actually received.

So this isn't really about fair and proportionate taxation. Because it reads more like revenge for an imaginary slight.

Many homeowners are ordinary taxpayers who bought a home with taxed income, spent decades paying the mortgage, and are far more worried about paying their bills and how they're going to afford retirement than boasting about paper gains they neither created nor can actually spend.

HPI wasn't created by homeowners. Successive governments actually encouraged people to buy homes. Cheap credit, financial deregulation, a failure to build enough homes, planning restrictions, an increased population and decades of political and regulatory decisions by successive administrations drove prices out of the reach of many, not homeowners.

As you said, "with a thick gullible public cheering it on". The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Another potential benefit as he sees it is forcing people to downsize and as house prices fall families can buy up the big houses, who knows how his mind works?

DonTBeacunt · 28/06/2026 20:45

MrsPapillon · 22/06/2026 12:59

I’m paying £4000+ a year CT in the north for a 4 bed and receiving practically nothing in way of services in return. It’s about time London paid its fair share for all the wonderful things on offer there like excellent transport, museums and parks instead of owning a £2m house and paying £1200 a year. I’d welcome a land tax.

we pay a similar amount £4000+ with identical issues, the real issue is the inequality of London council tax. We paid around £600 when we lived in the equivalent house in London. Don’t think all of the SE has it good 😳

Housebashing · 28/06/2026 21:01

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 20:30

Another potential benefit as he sees it is forcing people to downsize and as house prices fall families can buy up the big houses, who knows how his mind works?

I suspect his mind works looking for the greater Good of the masses as opposed to the benefit of the few. Thank goodness, hopefully.

BrownTroutBluesAgain · 28/06/2026 21:16

Housebashing · 28/06/2026 21:01

I suspect his mind works looking for the greater Good of the masses as opposed to the benefit of the few. Thank goodness, hopefully.

I would say ignoring the homes 1/39 is very questionable

NorthXNorthWest · 28/06/2026 21:25

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 20:30

Another potential benefit as he sees it is forcing people to downsize and as house prices fall families can buy up the big houses, who knows how his mind works?

I don't know if you are being ironic.

The tax may reduce purchase prices, but it will also increase the cost of owning a home. It's also likely to push up prices in lower-tax areas as buyers gravitate towards homes with lower ongoing costs - even families.

That tax is only likely to move in one direction. Ultimately, people will just be swapping part of their mortgage for an ever-increasing annual tax bill, which is likely to end up exceeding what they would otherwise have paid in Council Tax.

NorthXNorthWest · 28/06/2026 21:40

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 20:30

Another potential benefit as he sees it is forcing people to downsize and as house prices fall families can buy up the big houses, who knows how his mind works?

Forcing people to downsize downsizers to compete with first and second time buyers for the limited housing stock available? That'll be good for prices.

So hefty annual taxes make larger homes more attractive to families?
That's an interesting theory. I mean we definitely saw that with VAT on private school fees. That up-lift definitely made those schools places more attractive.

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 21:58

NorthXNorthWest · 28/06/2026 21:40

Forcing people to downsize downsizers to compete with first and second time buyers for the limited housing stock available? That'll be good for prices.

So hefty annual taxes make larger homes more attractive to families?
That's an interesting theory. I mean we definitely saw that with VAT on private school fees. That up-lift definitely made those schools places more attractive.

He knows that interest rates are coming for the property bubble, people will cough up a yearly tax if they can secure cheap property, if taxes go up they will just get a lodger or AirBnB a spare room.

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 22:01

NorthXNorthWest · 28/06/2026 21:25

I don't know if you are being ironic.

The tax may reduce purchase prices, but it will also increase the cost of owning a home. It's also likely to push up prices in lower-tax areas as buyers gravitate towards homes with lower ongoing costs - even families.

That tax is only likely to move in one direction. Ultimately, people will just be swapping part of their mortgage for an ever-increasing annual tax bill, which is likely to end up exceeding what they would otherwise have paid in Council Tax.

Families are not going to buy flats, whatever tax nonsense he comes up with, flats are a loss maker now, no one wants them, the idea that "prices are going to be pushed up" because of this or that is fantasy, people no longer have the debt available to push up prices.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · 28/06/2026 22:04

Seagulldancing · 22/06/2026 12:32

I have California based relatives and I like their land tax system. Its based on the sale price of your house when you bought it. So a house bought in 1970 has a low tax compared to a recent sale i a rising market. Much better than random bands or land prices.

How is this fairer, surely it disproportionately taxes the younger generation compared to older one - probably the same people also facing childcare fees, student loan repayments, higher mortgage costs ?

nearlylovemyusername · 28/06/2026 22:13

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 20:30

Another potential benefit as he sees it is forcing people to downsize and as house prices fall families can buy up the big houses, who knows how his mind works?

His mind works in the same way as any other Labour - ideology with no understanding or economic reality and behaviors. He gave an interview about bond markets (I bet with no idea what they are, probably thinking they are some meanies who try to cut his magic money trees) and gilts jumped to the level making Truss pale.

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 22:35

nearlylovemyusername · 28/06/2026 22:13

His mind works in the same way as any other Labour - ideology with no understanding or economic reality and behaviors. He gave an interview about bond markets (I bet with no idea what they are, probably thinking they are some meanies who try to cut his magic money trees) and gilts jumped to the level making Truss pale.

Yes, that was the "bond markets don"t matter" interview? He is a walking crisis waiting to happen, I am loading the money market funds and buying popcorn.

NorthXNorthWest · 28/06/2026 23:01

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 22:01

Families are not going to buy flats, whatever tax nonsense he comes up with, flats are a loss maker now, no one wants them, the idea that "prices are going to be pushed up" because of this or that is fantasy, people no longer have the debt available to push up prices.

It isn't rocket science.

From the various bits of housing data and research I've seen, three-bedroom homes are already among the most sought-after properties for first-time buyers, second-time buyers and young families. That has hardly changed since I bought my first home many years ago. Although many first-time buyers end up buying a two-bedroom home because that's all they can afford.

Downsizers most commonly move into two-bedroom homes, with three-bedroom homes the next most common. They are often in a different position from many first and second time buyers. By selling their existing home, they can often release enough equity, to buy their next home outright. That can give them more choice or wiggle room on price.

In that situation why would many people who have spent decades planning for retirement voluntarily choose a leasehold flat with uncertain future service charges, management fees and less space if a two or three bedroom freehold house, or ideally a bungalow, were available within their budget?

First time buyers, second time buyers, young families and downsizers all looking at the same houses is not to going to improve affordability, especially when there still aren't enough of those houses.

nearlylovemyusername · 28/06/2026 23:04

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 22:35

Yes, that was the "bond markets don"t matter" interview? He is a walking crisis waiting to happen, I am loading the money market funds and buying popcorn.

Yes, "we shouldn't be in hock to the bond markets".

Something in me actually want this crash to happen rather than death by thousand cuts

poetryandwine · 28/06/2026 23:34

NorthXNorthWest · 28/06/2026 14:22

This is the last I'm going to say about "idle money" when it comes to home ownership.

The irony of labelling owners who live in their single home as economically "inefficient", while supporting the extraction of ever more money from them to fund one of the largest and, in my view, most inefficient structures in Britain, is staggering. And that's before we even start talking about the Laffer Curve.
I am pretty sure that, in this country, we have the freedom to decide how we spend the money we earn, provided it is legal. I chose my home first, my pension second and everything else afterwards.

Of course, I want some of my money working for the wider economy. That's why I save, contribute to a pension and pay my taxes. My savings and pension help provide capital for businesses and investors to innovate and grow. They are not just sitting in a box gathering dust until I need to draw on them. Irrespective of that, surely some of my hard-earned, after-tax income should be mine to use in the way I believe is best for me and my family. Not every pound I spend should be judged solely on whether it generates the highest investment return, nor should I have to worry about market risk. Money exists to improve the quality of people's lives, not the other way round.

Any financial adviser will assess your attitude to risk. Mine is low - having almost all my savings wiped out in a market crash did that for me. If you have another five or ten years for the market to recover, it isn't such a big deal. But if, like me, you need access to that money, the loss is very real and very permanent. As you get older, you don't always have another ten or fifteen years to wait for markets to recover.

As people approach retirement, financial advisers generally recommend taking fewer risks with investments because there may not be enough time to recover from a major market fall. For many people, money tied up in a mortgage-free home is a perfectly legitimate form of prudent financial planning.
There is another inconsistency with the so-called "fair share" tax, or LVT. We accept that gains and losses on shares are only realised when the assets are sold. Yet when the same principle applies to housing, an unrealised increase in the value of someone's home is treated as real taxable wealth, even though the owner has received no cash and may have no intention of selling.

As I've said, I have no objection to taxing genuine income or realised gains - something fair and proportionate. But there is a fundamental difference between taxing money someone has actually earned or received and taxing them every year on an unrealised valuation of the roof over their head. There are, in my opinion, no legitimate circumstances in which someone should have to sell, or borrow against, their home to fund general public spending. Selling your home to support yourself, or to pay for your own long-term care, is one thing. Paying an annual "wealth" tax, based on something you have not received, simply because your home has risen in value, is another matter entirely.

IMO, the tax, in that form, only makes sense if someone has a mugger's mindset: "You have it, I want it, so I'm going to take it by force if I have to."
It helps explain why some right-on activists and their handmaidens either cheer it on or, even worse, stand by while the state engages in what I see as state-sponsored thuggery against citizens who have done nothing more than work hard, pay their way, become self reliant and plan for a retirement that reduces their burden on the state.

People are not economic units whose sole purpose is to maximise investment returns or tax receipts. We work to build secure lives for ourselves and our families. That is exactly what I did. I don't believe that should ever become the justification for treating the roof over my, or anyone else's, head as just another source of revenue for the state.

Why are you invoking the Laffer Curve in support of anything?

One aspect is the theoretical idea that there exists an optimal tax rate somewhere between 0% and 100%, both of which are supremely counterproductive. Whether this optimal rate exists is a question of debate amongst serious economists, but a reasonable number support the idea.

What most understand by the Laffer Curve is that tax revenue increases as rates drop. Anyone who wants an explanation if the alleged mechanism can go elsewhere as I cannot stomach it. Suffice it to say that Arthur Laffer was briefly Ronald Reagan’s favourite economist, based on this idea, and Reagan’s subsequent tax cuts plunged America into recession. A slight oversimplification, but not much.

I am not aware of any respectable academic economist who believes in the Laffer Curve. If you are, why not name them here? We can compare the quality of publications in the standard academic ranking systems of those who do and do not support the LC.

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 23:35

NorthXNorthWest · 28/06/2026 23:01

It isn't rocket science.

From the various bits of housing data and research I've seen, three-bedroom homes are already among the most sought-after properties for first-time buyers, second-time buyers and young families. That has hardly changed since I bought my first home many years ago. Although many first-time buyers end up buying a two-bedroom home because that's all they can afford.

Downsizers most commonly move into two-bedroom homes, with three-bedroom homes the next most common. They are often in a different position from many first and second time buyers. By selling their existing home, they can often release enough equity, to buy their next home outright. That can give them more choice or wiggle room on price.

In that situation why would many people who have spent decades planning for retirement voluntarily choose a leasehold flat with uncertain future service charges, management fees and less space if a two or three bedroom freehold house, or ideally a bungalow, were available within their budget?

First time buyers, second time buyers, young families and downsizers all looking at the same houses is not to going to improve affordability, especially when there still aren't enough of those houses.

Edited

Affordability has nothing to do with how many people are looking at a house.

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 23:37

nearlylovemyusername · 28/06/2026 23:04

Yes, "we shouldn't be in hock to the bond markets".

Something in me actually want this crash to happen rather than death by thousand cuts

Yes, hopefully it will coincide with the "Big One" for stocks as well, should be interesting times ahead as the PTB try to keep the plates spinning.

BrownTroutBluesAgain · 29/06/2026 01:59

KeepPumping · 28/06/2026 22:01

Families are not going to buy flats, whatever tax nonsense he comes up with, flats are a loss maker now, no one wants them, the idea that "prices are going to be pushed up" because of this or that is fantasy, people no longer have the debt available to push up prices.

A lack of Supply and increased demand pushes prices up

its basic economics

DdraigGoch · 29/06/2026 02:34

NorthXNorthWest · 28/06/2026 18:49

"It's easy to sell a house that comes with a hefty annual tax bill," said no estate agent ever.

Especially when that annual bill is likely to keep rising, and households are already struggling with the cost of living.

People will go to great lengths to defend the indefensible.

Well if a house is hard to sell then they'll need to reduce the asking price. Hey presto, house price deflation!

BrownTroutBluesAgain · 29/06/2026 02:38

DdraigGoch · 29/06/2026 02:34

Well if a house is hard to sell then they'll need to reduce the asking price. Hey presto, house price deflation!

Do you not see the issue with your comment in relation to this thread

DdraigGoch · 29/06/2026 03:33

BrownTroutBluesAgain · 29/06/2026 02:38

Do you not see the issue with your comment in relation to this thread

Nope

LondonRidge · 29/06/2026 04:47

The issue here is that homeowners are being lumped together by property value when in fact they’re a very mixed group and there are far more important differences to take into account.

I’d say the biggest difference is between people who are earning… and people who are not… or more crudely maybe, age.

A working family living in a more expensive home is already contributing far more on both a nominal and a relative basis to the system through higher income taxes, as well as a higher amount spent on other taxes or services that fund or free up funding elsewhere in the economy… than someone in a smaller home or someone who isn’t working. They typically need much higher incomes to live in the house and pay off their mortgages, meaning they’re taxed much more than those without the same overheads.

I don’t think you can argue these households aren’t paying their fair share just because of council tax.

However, I DO think there are far too many people living in expensive homes who don’t need or have high income… and therefore don’t contribute proportionally in other taxes relative to their property wealth. Who are they? Generally people who bought their home on very low multiples 30+ years ago, paid the mortgage off fairly easily and now pay little more than the basic tax on their retirement income.

It’s this group which underpays their tax relative to their home, and is also sat on some of the largest untaxed gains in wealth I can think of. But how to tell them to pay… without losing all your votes or facing cries from people that they are asset rich and cash poor and that they can’t possibly be asked to release equity from their home to pay anymore because “they’ve paid taxes all their life”. I don’t think paying taxes for eg 40 years in work is a reason not to have to share the burden more equally for 30 odd years out of work!

So… for a property tax to work I think it needs to be looked at on a net household tax basis otherwise it totally undermines the principle that “higher value homes aren’t paying their fair share”.

Or… we need to find a better way of taxing the unearned gains people have made in their primary residence which is by far my preferred approach.

And, at the same time … as someone who is in one of those houses, i don’t mind paying a bit more but if it doesn’t come with cuts in the welfare bill, improvements in the NHS, and more spending in defence… we’ll be following suit with many other families I know with roots around the country in retiring early, selling up, moving up north to buy a big beautiful house for half the cost, pushing up property prices everywhere else and generally paying as little tax as we can.

EasternStandard · 29/06/2026 07:19

poetryandwine · 28/06/2026 23:34

Why are you invoking the Laffer Curve in support of anything?

One aspect is the theoretical idea that there exists an optimal tax rate somewhere between 0% and 100%, both of which are supremely counterproductive. Whether this optimal rate exists is a question of debate amongst serious economists, but a reasonable number support the idea.

What most understand by the Laffer Curve is that tax revenue increases as rates drop. Anyone who wants an explanation if the alleged mechanism can go elsewhere as I cannot stomach it. Suffice it to say that Arthur Laffer was briefly Ronald Reagan’s favourite economist, based on this idea, and Reagan’s subsequent tax cuts plunged America into recession. A slight oversimplification, but not much.

I am not aware of any respectable academic economist who believes in the Laffer Curve. If you are, why not name them here? We can compare the quality of publications in the standard academic ranking systems of those who do and do not support the LC.

Why did ROI expand on offering a lower tax rate in the 1990s after initially doing so for Apple?

Ireland used Apple as a blueprint for its grander economic philosophy: transforming a small island nation into a global tech and finance hub. By creating a reputation as an incredibly accommodating, low-tax destination, Ireland successfully used Apple to attract other massive US multinationals like Google, Microsoft, and Intel

EasternStandard · 29/06/2026 07:36

As for the request for an economist hopefully some undergraduate institutions don’t leave out Mundell because the lecturer prefers only to teach left leaning economists.

A Text-Book Staple: The Mundell-Fleming model is so fundamental that it is still taught in almost every undergraduate macroeconomics textbook in the world.

Monty36 · 29/06/2026 07:41

No. His devolution to Regions is a huge issue. Not in a good way. Abdicating responsibility is not okay.

NorthXNorthWest · 29/06/2026 08:02

poetryandwine · 28/06/2026 23:34

Why are you invoking the Laffer Curve in support of anything?

One aspect is the theoretical idea that there exists an optimal tax rate somewhere between 0% and 100%, both of which are supremely counterproductive. Whether this optimal rate exists is a question of debate amongst serious economists, but a reasonable number support the idea.

What most understand by the Laffer Curve is that tax revenue increases as rates drop. Anyone who wants an explanation if the alleged mechanism can go elsewhere as I cannot stomach it. Suffice it to say that Arthur Laffer was briefly Ronald Reagan’s favourite economist, based on this idea, and Reagan’s subsequent tax cuts plunged America into recession. A slight oversimplification, but not much.

I am not aware of any respectable academic economist who believes in the Laffer Curve. If you are, why not name them here? We can compare the quality of publications in the standard academic ranking systems of those who do and do not support the LC.

Your reply focuses almost entirely on one passing reference to the Laffer Curve, conveniently ignoring the main points.

I don't have to be an economist to understand the obvious. Taxes influence behaviour. Even economists who disagree about the Laffer Curve generally accept that. The debate isn't about whether taxes change behaviour, but by how much and at what point.

Ooh, get you! "Serious economists" and publication rankings. Because, yeah, that settles the debate.🙄

Don't get me wrong, I love a good peer-reviewed paper on almost any topic. But simply invoking credentials doesn't answer the question. This isn't Masters of the Universe, where we all hold a sword aloft, shout "By the power of serious economists!" and, hey presto, the debate is settled or the problems are magically fixed!

Last time I looked, economics still had different schools of thought, and they still didn't all agree with each other.

So I don't accept that only economists are capable of understanding a problem or recognising the trade-offs. Public policy is about more than economic theory. It's about creating fair and practical solutions that work in the real world, encourage the right behaviours and raise the right amount of tax without strangling growth.

Perhaps you could now answer the question you've been avoiding. I would so appreciate it.

Why should someone be taxed every year on an unrealised increase in the value of the home they live in when they haven't received a penny? How can that be considered fair and proportionate?