Culling wild ponies on Dartmoor

[baerben]

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15918295/The-woke-quango-wants-cull-wild-pony-Dartmoor-wont-speak-people-fighting-save-lives.html

AIBU to think this is horrendous? I have no agricultural background but as I understand it Natural England wants to protect bio diversity in the area and avoid overgrazing. Surely there must be a different way?

Don’t the livestock farmers kill their animals anyway ? That’s how they make a profit.

If they have to now fit a quota, breed fewer of them.

Not sure why horses bred for meat should be treated any differently than any other animal bred for meat.

The point is it’s not true.

OP, always good to fact check. Especially when your first source is the DM.

Don't read the Daily Mail. It isn't good for your mental health. It is full of lies. You need to fact check everything in that piece of shit.

Horses are not bred for meat in the UK. We don't have enough space. They are poor energy converters compared to sheep and cattle. And on the whole the UK does not have the stomach for eating horses any more than dogs or cats.

IF we were to breed horses meat it would be more expensive due to that poor energy conversion AND they would then be subject to rules and regs from DEFRA. There is a page in a horse's passport to sign it out of the food chain and this is what most owners do to get the benefit of drugs which are not allowed in the food chain, human or animal.

Ponies and horses do still go for meat bought from auction by the meat man (transported to Europe) but they are not bred or raised in the UK specifically for that.

It really is a complex subject with no simple solution. There are ways and means to improve the quality of the Dartmoor pony and reduce the numbers but it involves owners and relevant organisations working together. What it shouldn't involve is NE threatening the livelihood of farmers and commoners.

^ 👏🏻

better that than the losses North Yorkshire saw in 1976 and again last year with others in between. If they get out of control then that’s down to poor moorland management which is no reason to ban it.

There are far better ways to prevent wildfires than swaling, which of course kills any wildlife in its way- in nesting season, too. You talk as if setting fire to the Moor is undertaken as an act of altruism, rather than to provoke the soft green shoots of grass that sheep prefer.

The whole hillside beyond my favourite campsite was black last May, with all the young trees it was hosting blackened and scorched beyond recovery. Yet another example of a "controlled burn" gone wrong.

@6ate9What do you propose? War or famine, or both?

This has been all over Reform UK run Facebook groups. You would have thought Kier Starmer personally ordered this

Keir

I wonder how many of them could even point to Dartmoor on a map of the British Isles.

I am directly involved in this. This is a really real situation. Some of the media have twisted and dramatised the situation but the ponies are really seriously under threat.

Firstly for background. Dartmoor Hill Ponies are semi feral, which means they are owned but live a feral life on the moor. They come in annually in the autumn drifts for weaning foals and health checks. They are then returned to the moors. Farmers (or commoners) own these ponies and they have specific areas of the moor on which they are entitled to graze them.

Dartmoor Hill Ponies are on the at risk register. As are Dartmoor Ponies. Many mix the two up. The Dartmoor pony is actually a modern breed. It was created in the Victorian era to form a standardised pony from Dartmoor. It was created by using foundation stock from the hill ponies and breeding with a mix of exmoor, Welsh & Arab ponies for form the Dartmoor Pony we know today. There has always been a wide variety of ponies on the moors so the Dartmoor Pony Breed was created to form a breed standard for the showing ring.

So what’s happening now?
Natural England want stocking numbers on Dartmoor reduced by up to 92%. That is across cattle, sheep and now Dartmoor hill ponies - which were formerly excluded from their calculations. Why? Because Natural Englands assessment of Dartmoor is that it is in an unfavourable condition and is lacking in biodiversity. They claim it is overgrazed.

The commoners and local groups feel very differently. Whilst they agree some areas are overgrazed (primarily by sheep) they feel the lack of biodiversity comes from the rapidly spreading Molinia grass. Molinia grass is a rapidly growing grass which quickly outcompetes other plant life.
1980 it was estimated that the Molinia grass covered 1% of Dartmoor. Today it is estimated that it covers over 40%. The only proven method of managing Molinia grass is grazing by cattle and ponies. Sheep will not eat it. Over the same period (1980 - 2025) the numbers of cattle and ponies has already fallen by approximately 80%. This is due to policies which have already slashed the numbers of grazing animals on the moors and the unviability of keeping ponies out due to financial pressures in the last decade.
Farmers have been warning about the Molinia grass for at least 15 years. I personally was at a talk with a farmer in 2012 who was talking about it back then.

Natural Englands policy not only makes farming on Dartmoor almost completely unviable. It risks endangering the population of hill ponies. It will also be catastrophic for biodiversity on the moor. Molinia grass is also a massive fire hazard as it burns quickly and spreads rapidly.

We need an increase in pony and cattle numbers and a restocking of sheep in the short term at least. Studies have demonstrated that the ponies and cattle are the best form of control we have for Molinia. Natural England have not come up with an alternative solution. They want to destock and let nature take over. Which is the same policy that has allowed the molinia to spread the way it has since 1980.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner Voluntary Human Extinction.

No, there isn't. Death isn't the end of the world.

These aren't purebred "Dartmoor ponies". They're Dartmoor hill ponies ie random mongrels, many of them with poor conformation (physical makeup) making them not really up to work.

There's too many ponies and horses in the UK and not enough homes for them. The poor quality ones being culled is better than them being left to starve. Or to end up neglected in the homes of the type of people who are so lacking in knowledge that they don't know what "trouble" looks like from a veterinary perspective and are willing to buy it, but not so willing to PTS when it becomes clear the animal isn't up to work and there's not really any home for it anywhere. They just want their money back and feel sentimental/horrified about euthanasia. So they sell on to another numpty, who does the same thing, over and over again.

Whilst many humans think nothing of selling on horses and ponies, it can be pretty stressful for the animals themselves, especially if it happens often. If they're not good for anything (and many of them aren't) then they're better off being culled than having a lifetime of stress and neglect.

Controlled burns do not happen in nesting season. They are all over by the end of march. Nesting birds don’t get going before then. Any that do are too early and will almost certainly be lost due to weather conditions. Controlled burns are also exactly that. Controlled. Farmers can see what they are doing and will avoid nests they see.

It’s actually really good for ground nesting birds as it opens up fence thickets and makes it more accessible for small birds. The burning doesn’t remove the shrubbery. So it gives them good cover from predators. The plants also begin regrowing very rapidly giving them further protection.

in terms of killing insects - that isn’t necessarily always a bad thing. It massively helps keep the tick population under control. Which might not be popular with some but it is important. Most can get well out of the way. It is done slowly and very noisily so most creatures will be safely out of the way by the time the fire comes close.

I've known "controlled" burns happen as late as the end of April. And birds are well into the nesting season by the end of March. And as for not affecting scrub? Farmers are open about the fact they do it to get rid of gorse!

Why would increasing stocks of the species that won't eat the invasive grass help in the slightest?

I agree with everything you say apart from a restocking of sheep. They're no good for the biodiversity of the Moor in any way.

By the way, have you seen the enclosure at Bellever Tor with its herd of ponies? I noticed a massive difference in plant life on the "pony" side of the fence- yes, some molinia, but lots of heather, myrtle etc. In acute contrast to the "sheepwrecked" side of the fence, which was an unbroken sea of molinia. They're a beautiful herd, too. Being under the care of the Dartmoor Pony Association, I assume they're safe, as they belong to an organisation that genuinely cares about ponies.

Here the burns end at the end of march. Thats the rules here. I have only known it happen once after that which was post Covid when burns hadn’t happened for some time due to the pandemic and there were risk assessments done by the national park in conjunction with natural England and the fire service. The fire risk to local infrastructure was considered extremely high and fire breaks were burnt. And thank god they were as a wild fire did break out that year which had they not burnt the breaks in would have reached peoples homes.

You misunderstand the way burning works. It controls the Gorse. The burnt gorse still stands. I drive past an area that was burnt in march and the burnt gorse is still standing. It will break down over time but it is still there. I will see if I have any pictures but will take some on Wednesday if I don’t have any.

Yeah, it's there- charred, dead stems! 😆

Yes. And it provides excellent cover for small birds and other small critters. It doesn’t kill the gorse either. Because it’s done so early when the ground is wet. It doesn’t affect the roots. So it regrows. The burnt section is already nearly the hight it was. It’s just not woody and dry so it won’t burn easily.

Then no policies Kemi got in on the act. 🙄 So sick of the way she only cares about anything Reform does to please the voters they’re competing for. This is particularly galling as the Tories have many years of doing sfa for Devon under their belt with very little central gov investment hence the reduction of support for them in the county. Kemi and Nige think banging on about Dartmoor ponies will garner support. No can we have some actual
policies and ideas to rectify the huge amount of damage the Tories and Farage have done please. Dartmoor ponies!🙄

A very, very good article about swaling by Tony Whitehead, which covers all of the points just touched on, backed up with data.

To summarise: There is a massive leap in wildfires in swaling season;

Due to climate change, birds are nesting earlier, and are already nesting way before the end of March;

There's some good evidence that swaling has aided the spread of molinia.

https://www.dartmoornature.org.uk/post/swaling

You....you're telling us that an entire burnt hillside covered with the charred skeletons of gorse and trees provides "excellent cover for birds"? Erm...I think the unburnt gorse would have provided rather better cover, don't you?

Anyway, read the article I've just posted (you won't 🙄)