AIBU to advise anyone who is ever rude to stay out of Germany?

[Zebrasarecooler]

I've just come across a German law which says that if you insult someone and they report you you'll be prosecuted. Punishment is up to one year in prison, or up to two years if you insulted the person in public or in a group setting. Or a fine.
In case people think that this only applies to really serious insults, here's some advice from a German law firm:

Examples of criminal insults:

VERBAL INSULTS:
Calling someone an ‘arsehole’, ‘idiot’, ‘slut’ or ‘scumbag’.
A member of the public calls a police officer on duty a ‘cop scum’.
An employee calls their line manager a ‘loser’ during a meeting.

GESTURES AND ACTIONS:
Giving the middle finger whilst driving.
Making an obscene gesture during an altercation.
Spitting at someone’s feet.

INSULTS ONLINE:
Defamatory comments on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter.
Sharing defamatory memes or caricatures.
Insults in WhatsApp groups.

Took longer than expected but predictable and unfunny

OK, well taking it at face value (ChatGPT is not a source) that sounds like a truly miniscule number in a population of 83 million. And that just lists complaints made, not how many were actually worth pursuing.

How many were made in the UK under any similar law?

Like someone else said, the solicitor's website is like an ambulance chaser - it's their business model to convince you you have a case to sue somebody. The vast majority of the time it wouldn't be worth it financially to pursue, solicitors aren't cheap. "Not uncommon" is very specific wording which from that kind of source suggests to me that it's basically saying "It happens sometimes"

TBH a lot of people in Germany have legal insurance just in case someone tries to sue them - this is more because Germans are obsessed with insurance, but it is also a more litigous culture than the UK. Not as much as the US, but it does happen.

You can dismiss most problems on the basis that they don't happen that often and the chances are they won't happen to you. The real power of this kind of law is that it COULD happen to you, it could be used against you by your neighbour or work colleague or wannabee boyfriend who has some kind of a grudge against you. Even by a teenage child. A claim could easily be manufactured, or you might actually lose your cool on occasion and call someone an idiot or a lazy fucker or tell them to grow up or be a man, or make a v sign. I don't think that our lives should be that regulated and controlled and that subject to the malice or extreme pettiness of people around us. It's using a hammer to crack a nut.

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I have no idea why Zebra is so obsessed with this and why Zebra doesn't name the podcast.

I think this kind of thing is important. It makes a real difference to societies and quality of life. I haven't been asked to name the podcast before - it's not a secret. As I've said, it focused on a newer law which takes the law on insults further, by giving politicians more protection.
The podcast is called Lage der Nation - der Politik-Podcast aus Berlin, and it was a recent episode. Enjoy!

Hände hoch

Exactly this, as I said in my example of it happening to my DD. Her neighbour just did it to piss her off. He knew he was in the wrong. Often playing guitar in rühigzeit. I told her to call the police about him because that is the way things are done here and she wouldn’t do it. So she ends up having to spend money (or I did) to get it dropped.

I'm curious what your agenda here is? Especially in the context of you thinking making a v sign would get someone prosecuted.

But it could in Germany

@Zebrasarecooler seems no one reads the whole story. I posted a real life example against my DD. I live in Germany and these are the rules.

Not everyone is so vindictive here. You cam get away with it but if someone wants to make trouble they will.

The v sign? No, the v sign will definitely not get anyone arrested or prosecuted in Germany.

What I find strange and also, to be honest, worrying is how a number of people have reacted to my post as if I was making something up, and/or have an agenda, and/or hate the Germans, etc.
Why would I make it up? How COULD I make it up, when it only takes a moment to check what I said online? And why would I have some kind of nefarious agenda, rather than just being worried about how governments are restricting and controlling our lives? How can it not be a good idea to take an interest in what is happening around the world, and try to learn from it?
So many people seem to believe, really strongly, that we should just accept anything that happens, shouldn't even mention it, should never voice criticism of anything. As if everything will somehow always be okay, regardless of how many freedoms are lost.
And why would I have bothered to teach myself German to advanced level if I hated the place and wanted to do it down? I like Germany and have German friends. I wanted to get some views from people in the UK before talking to them about this legislation. It may be boiled frog syndrome, or a strong cultural difference.
If you like the legislation then fine - explain why and we can debate it. But just accusing me of dishonesty and malice when you have absolutely no reason to do so is a waste of everyone's time and reduces the value of a forum like Mumsnet.

And, @HaveYouFedTheFish , someone on this thread says she learned to drive in Germany, and that learners there are apparently warned repeatedly that they must never use a rude gesture against other drivers, as they could be prosecuted for it. Making a rude gesture is also one of the examples of an "insult" that is given by German law firms online.

Indeed, giving the middle finger to other drivers isn't ok. It could get you a fine - just as it could in the UK.

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/hand-gesture-could-land-angry-3413924

The V sign has no meaning at all in Germany. If you believe it will get you prosecuted in Germany, that throws your understanding of the culture into question.

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/how-much-each-rude-gesture-3652543

The things you are claiming are unique to Germany are not - they are all prosecutable under public order laws. Your obsession with Germany seems to be based on an incomplete understanding of a pod cast.

It would make vastly more sense if you were outraged about the extremely light sentences for the 2020 rape case you mentioned, but instead you're obsessed with laws against swearing at people in public and so on - all rarely used laws which also exist and are similarly rarely used in the UK.

This is like whether eggs should be kept in the fridge or not...

In America they have to wash the eggs before they are sold. Because of this the eggs need to be kept in the fridge.

In the UK and EU we don't wash our eggs. So generally people don't keep them in the fridge (you can if you want). And shops don't usually put them in the fridge section.

Tempting as it is to laugh at those crazy yanks and their egg washing ways no one is right or wrong. Different countries have different ways of doing things. Likewise, the US, the UK and Germany are all democracies with different attitudes towards free speech/freedom of expression/offensive speech. Because they have different histories and different cultures. And that's fine.

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No, the podcast was on a slightly different piece of legislation, but it's what led me to do some research, which I think gives me a fairly good understanding of the insults law. And clearly these cases are brought in Germany. I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for a rude gesture to another driver in the UK, but it's interesting to know that it's theoretically possible. But it's not based around someone making a complaint, with a case then effectively being brought on their behalf. And I feel very safe calling you an idiot without fear of prosecution.

And stop it with accusations that I should be worrying about something more important. Yes, I could have started a thread about men not being sent to prison for rape. In fact I can tell you that I have started a thread on exactly that issue in the past. Happy now? However, there are many serious topics I haven't started threads on. Does that mean I can't start a thread about this?

Your thread is about a very slight difference between the UK and Germany. You don't seem to properly understand the situation in either country, and it's really odd to have gone down a rabbit hole about Germany without any real understanding of the country and without having checked out the laws in the UK properly first!

You're saying that you found some annecdotal evidence of cases being brought in Germany online but you personally haven't heard of cases being brought in the UK, and are basing a wobbly argument on this.

It's even more tenuous than the egg washing example quoted up thread - you're trying to raise (what shock, outrage?) a reaction to the laws of another country based on crappy half arsed research, without having done equivalent crappy half arsed research on UK laws. The laws are very, very similar in both countries.

1. I have provided an actual published statistic of the number of complaints brought in Germany in one year. That is not an anecdote.

2. It is not a "slight difference". I am free to call people idiots, stupid, ignorant, lazy, rude and many other things to their face, and to use rude hand gestures, in front of other people and online. In most circumstances, that is not a potential criminal offence, and it doesn't become one by that person reporting me to the police. Let alone one that could result in a 2 year prison term, for making someone else "lose dignity". We can freely insult politicians (not extending to rape and death threats, which are threats, not insults). In Germany someone was recently prosecuted for calling a politician an idiot. The police can also search homes and computers for evidence.
   Try calling the police to complain that someone on Whatsapp has called you an idiot, and see how far that gets you. In Germany you'd be invited to make a formal complaint with a view to prosecution.

I see that you've ignored the person on this thread who has actually had this happen to her daughter in Germany.

This kind of thing makes a big difference to day to day life - how we dare to behave in front of others, worrying about the power someone has over us if we slip up and swear at them or insult them behind their back. I hear and see people make these comments all the time, and I don't live in a particularly rude or aggressive place. All of those people would be policing their own behaviour and watching their back. That's a big societal shift.

Maybe you think that societal shift would be a good thing - that's fine. But just trying to shut down the argument on someone who's raised a legitimate view is pathetic and against the whole point of a website like Mumsnet.

Why don't you listen to the podcast and then tell us what you think of the discussion on there, in the context of politics? Since you appear to be saying that you know Germany well?

Or just continue with your "shut up and put up, everything's fine" approach to life, in which case a discussion forum may not be the right place for you.

Let's imagine that this thread is on Facebook and we know each others' names. I call you an unpleasant idiot who is out to try to stop people having genuine discussions. Do you think you should be able to go to the police and get me prosecuted? Or not? Because that's the choice here.

Well no because that’s not an insult in Germany 🙄