AIBU to advise anyone who is ever rude to stay out of Germany?

[Zebrasarecooler]

I've just come across a German law which says that if you insult someone and they report you you'll be prosecuted. Punishment is up to one year in prison, or up to two years if you insulted the person in public or in a group setting. Or a fine.
In case people think that this only applies to really serious insults, here's some advice from a German law firm:

Examples of criminal insults:

VERBAL INSULTS:
Calling someone an ‘arsehole’, ‘idiot’, ‘slut’ or ‘scumbag’.
A member of the public calls a police officer on duty a ‘cop scum’.
An employee calls their line manager a ‘loser’ during a meeting.

GESTURES AND ACTIONS:
Giving the middle finger whilst driving.
Making an obscene gesture during an altercation.
Spitting at someone’s feet.

INSULTS ONLINE:
Defamatory comments on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter.
Sharing defamatory memes or caricatures.
Insults in WhatsApp groups.

DH is currently reading German Men Sit Down To Pee which is a light-hearted at all these little cultural differences. The requirement to always wait for the green man is mentioned on the back.

dont even get me on shelf toilets! Although I think these are now being phased out.

I've also heard (on a different German podcast) that it's a criminal offence to use "du" when speaking to a policeman. You know that the Germans use "du" ("you") for friends and family and "Sie" (the more formal version of "you") for other people.

Depends on context. Essentially if you're a foreigner and mixing up du/Sie out of lack of understanding of the language they are unlikely to react to this.

OTOH if someone is deliberately being mocking to the police I think you'd find things escalating regardless of the country you happen to be in. Essentially similar to if you had a young cocky lad addressing a female police officer as "love" in a derogatory way. It's hard to explain what inappropriate use of du is like, because there is no real equivalent in English. But doing this on purpose essentially conveys a lack of respect, like you're dismissing the person as being beneath you in social standing. I suppose perhaps the closest example in English would be someone shouting at a police officer "I pay your wages!"

I mean I don’t do this anyway. And the world would be a better place if people didn’t.

So I don’t see the issue. I already liked Germany, now it’s gone up further in my estimations.

Is that really how our "hate speech" laws work? I don't think that's the rules the Police follow. 🤔

They aren't - I brought teenagers up in Germany and never heard of this law! Gwrmans swear a lot. They especially use English swearwords because swearing in a foreign language (albeit one heard constantly in songs/ media) is somehow not as bad. German teens are far more likely to use the word fuck or motherfucker than their native English speaking peers (if you compare like for like - teens from similar backgrounds etc.) but they wouldn't use the German equivalent in the same context.

Not swearing at people is a good thing, but I don't think the reason people don't walk around calling their bosses losers during meetings or passwers by arseholes is a law - do people in your life regularly do those things? People refered to others with insulting terms probably more frequently than is my experience in the UK - though no, they don't swear at each other - but neither do the people I know in the UK...

This is awesome! Think I'll see if I can transfer there 🤣

I've been to Germany many, many times, and, as previously established, I'm a gobshite. No one ever bothered to arrest me though.

The point is that you're at the mercy of the person you insult. You're obviously much more likely to be prosecuted if that person actually knows who you are and where you live, as they have to go to the police and make a formal complaint. Otherwise, they'd presumably have to grab a nearby policeman to get your personal details.

This is from a German gang rape case in 2024. A large group of men repeatedly raped a drunk 15 year old in a park:

"Eight of the nine men convicted of raping a 15-year-old girl will not have to go to prison; they were given suspended sentences. A young woman, on the other hand, was sentenced to community service: she had insulted one of the men on WhatsApp."

You don't get into trouble in the UK just by swearing at someone, calling them an idiot or a loser, etc. There is no UK equivalent of this German law. Nor should there be in my view. Certain types of people would have a field day with it.

Are you the kind of person who contacts the council every time their neighbour sneezes?
You should try Switzerland - I hear there are lots of lovely rules there.

You can't be prosecuted for telling a police officer that you pay their wages. That's the key difference here.

Some people are comparing this to the UK's "hate crime incidents", which related only to alleged abuse etc against certain protected groups (seemed to be used a lot by trans complainants). Hate crime incidents were abused by the police and I understand have now been discontinued in England. Hate crime incidents were not criminal offences though, and did not attract a fine, let alone imprisonment. The person's name was recorded. But that was bad enough and was taken advantage of. I'm glad it's gone, though it's still there in Scotland I think.

We still have freedom of speech in Germnay. So if you insult someone, you just have to state it as your opinion (I.e. I think he’s a cunt) rather than a fact (i.e. he‘s a cunt)

I knew someone who was admonished by the policeman for saying: "hätte hätte fahrradkette" in frustration. This was seen as disrespectful. There is no direct translation; it kind of means that the policeman was being absurd. So yes you want to be careful about being polite to the police in germany.

I find that very hard to believe. The cases I've looked at on this talk about balancing the insult against freedom of speech. It's accepted that having this as a crime involves a loss of freedom of speech.

Where are you reading all this? In what language?

The public order act (1986) allows people to be prosecuted for insulting others (anyone, including but not limited to police officers) in public.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/types-crime/verbal-abuse-and-harassment-public

It seems like a good idea to instill a culture of non acceptance toward verbal abuse.

however. The fact that group rape receives a suspended sentence suggests that something is terribly wrong with the justice system there, as it is here.

In German.

Complete freedom of speech would be everyone being allowed to say / communicate anything they want at any time. We don't have that in the UK. For instance it's a crime to give a speech seriously encouraging people to kill [category of people you don't like]. But it's not a crime to tell someone who's bumped into you in the street that he's an idiot. Whereas you could be prosecuted for that in Germany, at the behest of the person you've insulted. And apparently you can have a civil action brought against you too (I haven't looked into that, but I've seen it mentioned). It would be interesting to see what else is against the law.

Public order offences

1. These offences contrary to the Public Order Act 1986 relate to threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or display of visible representations, which:
2. Are likely to cause fear of, or to provoke, immediate violence: section 4;
3. Intentionally cause harassment, alarm or distress: section 4A; or
4. Are likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress (threatening or abusive words or behaviour only): section 5.
5. It is a defence to section 4A and section 5 for the accused to demonstrate that their conduct was reasonable, which must be interpreted in accordance with the freedom of expression and other freedoms. If these freedoms are engaged, a justification for interference (by prosecution) with them must be convincingly established. A prosecution may only proceed if necessary and proportionate.

It's clear from this that it's not possible to prosecute someone because they've said that someone is an idiot. Which is what is happening in Germany. It's about causing harassment, alarm or distress. It's not about impinging on someone's sense of personal dignity / not being sufficiently respectful. If I say in a Whatsapp group that Jim, the silly old man, forgot to bring cakes to the last meeting, he could go to the police over that. Despite being in no way alarmed or distressed, just feeling a bit embarrassed or disrespected.

There's Intercourse in Pennsylvania!

Ok. Well TBH people don't seem to be being prosecuted here left right and centre so I can only assume the wording of the law is different but it's interpreted in a reasonable way.

I imagine that people who have these claims brought against them are unlikely to boast about it. Who knows how many of these claims are brought?

This is from a German firm of solicitors advertising for "insults" work online:

"Victims of an insult should report it to the police and file a criminal complaint there. It is not uncommon for convictions to be secured. If the perpetrator ultimately escapes punishment, they will at least have been ‘marked’ once.
Furthermore, victims of an insult are also entitled to comprehensive civil claims. These are not pursued by the police and must be asserted by the victims themselves!"

3 things strike me from this: 1) "It is not uncommon for convictions to be secured."
2) "If the perpetrator ultimately escapes punishment, they will at least have been ‘marked’ once." So it seems that even if there is no conviction, the person the complaint has been made about will be "marked" by the police or prosecutions system - there will be some kind of record against them. And the firm is fairly clearly encouraging vexatious complaints here. And remember, the punishment is the process. This must be very stressful for the person who has the case brought against them.
3) That's not even the whole story - "victims of an insult are also entitled to comprehensive civil claims."

I've just asked ChatGPT about the number of complaints made under this law. Apparently 257,000 complaints were made to the police in 2025.
And apparently it's possible to bring a case privately if the police don't pursue it for you.