Welfarisation has made people utterly entitled and unable to take responsibility for themselves and their families.

[hagchic]

I grew up in a working class family. The values I was taught were that you stood on your own two feet and it was no one else's job to do what you could do for yourself.

If you were hurt, you were expected to get up and go and clean yourself up - and stop whining about it unless it was actually serious. If you were ill, you went to bed and if you were lucky some magic lucozade appeared.

If you were sad, then you were sad. If life was unfair then that was just how life was and you needed to deal with it.

You never ever sought charity or took benefits when you were able to work or put up with less. You lived to your own means, not to what you saw on TV or at school - and if you wanted that lifestyle it was up to you to get it.

Today everyone has the expectation that someone must help them, that they are obliged to help them - even before they have made any attempt to actually do the work of helping themselves. They expect luxuries like holidays, pets, new clothes and treats when they do nothing to earn this.

I think self sufficiency is a value that needs to return to our society.

I do think people are quick to look to the state but to be fair, society was a lot more equal back in the day. People had many more opportunities to 'get on' there were council houses and no one was ashamed to live in one. There was the universal 11 plus, none of this competitive nonsense with tutors being employed for years. There was the 'welfare' where children were given orange juice, cod liver oil so they were healthy. Free libraries, free swimming for kids! There were lots of jobs where you could earn a decent wage even if you weren't academic. Obviously there were downsides but I think we were far more resilient and self sufficient.

You were talking shite.

This 100%

Before Thatcher’s ‘care in the community’, some people spent their entire lives in large institutions. Now, with funding of ‘care in the community’ almost non-existent (especially since Supporting People funding was deringfenced and then savagely cut) people who struggle to cope alone still end up in institutions (bed blocking in hospitals, including mental health facilities, or prison). Or dead.

We need a programme of sheltered housing schemes for people who can’t live alone, where people can have their own home (and visitors to stay) but receive adequate 24/7 care and support and have access to communal rooms/gardens to avoid isolation. Very few such places even exist for older people now. They get stuck in rooms in care homes. Let alone for younger people who struggle to live independently or could be a danger to themselves or others if left in a flat alone in ‘the community’ with a part time support worker.

Sounds like you need Lucozade

In the orange cellophane

That's posh.

We got boiled Lemonade

This thread has sent me down a fascinating rabbit hole. Interestingly, there are examples of "king fathers" but not in the UK - such as King Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia, who was styled thus when his son abdicated. If Edward VIII had had a (legitimate) son, he could potentially have been a 'king father'.

And what about my friend who has heart failure and diabetes and can barely leave the house but was only granted £29 a week PIP?

You are incorrect. There is no proper safety net in this country. If you had to deal with the DWP I can assure you that you would be terrified of becoming ill or disabled. Very ill people should not be put through all the stress of fighting for PIP. You make me sick.

You think? I worked for the DHSS in the 1970s and people were the same then. At that time you could claim grants for clothes and furniture as well as weekly payments. People were just as likely to be dishonest but you could get a face to face appointment to claim benefit and it was possible, if you were really stuck, you could get a Giro the same day printed out in the office. If anything it was easier then.

Around 5 years ago, I was in a job at around the same (low) level I am at the moment. It paid me enough to afford my mortgage, general living costs, run an old car & be reasonably comfortable, and I even managed to reduce my hours to 4 days a week.

Now I'm in the same grade job working a full 5 day week, and every month is a struggle to survive from pay day to pay day. We keep getting told our annual pay rises are in line with inflation, but the headline inflation rates cover a whole range of things and it's the absolute basics which have increased much faster than the overall rate - the things people can't cut down on like food, energy, fuel.

And this is the reason why people are trying to grab as much as they can in benefits, and the reason why claiming is seen as a "normal" thing to do rather than a last resort or something shameful.

Yes there are people who take the piss, though nowhere near as many as some news sources would have us believe. But many of the "solutions" being advocated would mean those of us who do work as hard as they can for low reward would be put in an impossible situation financially. As it happens, as I'm single with no children the only benefit I can claim is lower level PIP. But I'm looking towards "retirement" in a few years and have realised that I won't be able to keep the roof over my head on just my smallish work pensions and the state pension without staying on at least part time for the foreseeable future.

So because YOU had it hard everyone else should too?

Ok, this actually will be good news for those who want the cutting of benefits, but why: they borrow more and more, will spread out now the refugee men among social houses...- how is this a country who has ran out of money

Welfare should always be there for the vulnerable. Few object to that. But too many perfectly able people have their noses in the trough too. And how you stop that I've got no clue.

But I do feel resentful at working full time to support an ever growing army of state dependents.

That you did everything you could to avoid the shame of asking for help - it was seen as personal failure

I grew up on a council estate in the NE. I agree that it was shameful to be 'on the dole' for any length of time. I remember my father, a draughtsman, taking a job as a bus conductor (to which he was ill-suited) when he was made redundant.
Anything to tide him over until he found an engineers draughtsman position.
My mother took a temporary cleaning job to cover the shortfall for a few months.

There were one or two families who lived their lives on benefits but they were few and far between.

I'm sorry you grew up in an abusive and narcissistic household. I'm sorry you now have deeply ingrained issues which you are projecting onto society. Obviously, you'll more than likely deny that and become defensive, have something else bitter to say...but these are -your- issues. Your behaviour, attitude, and opinion are a reflection on you.

First opinions and all that jazz...I don't have a very high one, from what I just read. I do feel pity, because you're so manipulated and gaslighted into thinking your opinion must be correct, so sweeping...that you'll more than likely forever live in this ignorant mindset. Again, that's a -you- problem.

There are some very lazy families out there, but I do believe you're lashing out. 🤷‍♀️ You do you, so long as you're happy and try not to be triggered by those living on the breadline...I'm sure they don't want to live on the breadline.

I miss lemon Lucozade, that stuff could have regrown limbs

You sound so sensible OP - wish more people thought like you (and I) do. People need to just get on with it instead of whining and moaning about how unfair everything is.

So when people on minimum wage topped up by UC work their hours to maximise their income they’re scroungers. When someone on £100k plus does the same to access free childcare they’re making sensible, tax efficient choices.

If you are working then you are not the problem.

I was brought up with love, care and empathy. If I was injured I was patched up and looked after. If I was ill I was cared for… put on the sofa with a blanket, brought chicken soup and medicine, had baths run for me, sympathised with. I am a high earner and have never claimed a benefit in my life.

100%

People who go on about this have rarely had to deal with the DWP or been a full-time, unpaid carer. Or have inherited wealth to cushion them.

Back in the day, some people stood and watched while children were wrenched from their mothers on entering the workhouse; peered from behind a curtain while desperate mothers handed over their much-wanted babies to foundling hospitals or orphanages; or gawped at people in mental health facilities, like they were going round a zoo.

There have always been people who are harsh, inhumane and uncompassionate. Dickens’ novels are full of them. Some even claim to be religious or morally upstanding.

Yes because our parents/ grandparents were all so well adjusted. No women on tranquillisers, no domestic violence, no kids beaten within an inch of their life or SA’d. Fine times!

See, I ask you this. What was I supposed to do? Three under 5. Ex buggers off. No maintenance and 18 years later, still no maintenance. I retrained and started teaching. Salary was £1.2k a month. Childcare was £800 a month. Mortgage was £400 a month. Without benefits, I would not have been able to work. One child later developed a disability. I claimed DLA and extra tax credits. I continued to work full time, despite being eligible for carers allowance. When eldest turned 16, I added tutoring, and later still, exam marking. Still entitled to tax credits.

Like thousands of others, I hold up my hands and say shit choice of father for my children. Not that I knew that and I married after 3 years and had children after 6 years together. Shit happens. But I did my best. There is no personal failure on my part. I did nothing wrong. I am not ashamed of claiming.

ODFOD is all I can say. Fuck this utter bollox where you pretend no claimant has any sense of decency or self respect. It suits your agenda to believe that. You could not be more wrong.

Off the top of my head.

Choosing to have children they know they can't support without benefits.
Visiting A&E because they don't know basic first aid.
Spending every penny they get coming in and having nothing set by for a rainy day even if all that would mean is giving up a few takeaways and Starbucks coffees a month.
Sending kids who are perfectly capable of toilet training to school in nappies, requiring extra teaching assistants to be employed.
Making zero attempt to stay fit even when they have the time and the money (not that it takes any money to walk).
Thinking tax payers should pay for your IVF while you spend more than it costs (and a lot less than having the child around) on a holiday.
Continuing consumption of large amounts of UPFs when the health risks are absolutely proven and you know it and you do have either the time or the money or both to eat better food.

I'm sure I can think of plenty more with a bit more time.

Thousands of working people claim benefits. You can't have it both ways - are benefit claimants lazy entitled fuckers or not?

if this is all true, why nobody cuts the wellfare?

I think you are right , never ever thought I would hear myself say this but fed up paying for the feckless, lazy people who see us as mugs who pay for the nail jobs, expensive phones etc On the other hand, we need to look after the people who are in genuine need.