Boris, Farage and Gove re Brexit-“Never have so few done so much damage to so many with so little ability to execute what they lied about.”

[Gkei737djdh]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-heseltine-farage-boris-johnson-uk-eu-b2994030.html

All so silent. They should hang their heads in shame, surely be publicly be made to take ownership for what they did and be held to account.Cowards, the lot of them.

And surely it’s time we tried to right the wrongs of Brexit.

Farage (I’m assuming that’s who you are talking about) played a huge and influential role in the lead-up to Brexit.

If you remember, he was one of the most vocal and recognisable advocates for the UK leaving the EU.

Farage also founded UKIP in the 1990s and helped build a political movement whose core mission was to take Britain out of the EU. Although he never held a seat in the UK Parliament, he served as a Member of the European Parliament from 1999 to 2020, using that position to criticise the EU from within and amplify Eurosceptic sentiment.

Through speeches, media appearances, and campaigning, he portrayed the EU as undemocratic, unaccountable, a threat to British sovereignty and responsible for unwanted immigration. His rhetoric and slogan “We want our country back!” was copied by Leavers.

This bit is important; Farage also exerted electoral pressure on the Tory Party. UKIP had experienced a surge in popularity, especially in the 2014 European Parliament elections where it won the most UK seats outperforming both Labour and the Conservatives. This rise played a major role in prompting David Cameron to include an EU referendum in the 2015 Conservative manifesto, widely seen as an attempt to counter UKIP’s growing influence.

During the 2016 Brexit referendum, Farage was not part of the official “Vote Leave” campaign, which was fronted by figures such as Boris Johnson and Michael Gove. Instead, he led the separate “Leave.EU” campaign, which adopted a more populist and immigration-focused strategy. Farage maintained a strong presence on television, radio, and social media, often using provocative messaging that attracted both support and criticism. One of the most controversial moments was his unveiling of the “Breaking Point” poster, which depicted migrants lining up at a border. The image was condemned by many, including members of the official Vote Leave campaign, as xenophobic.

HappiestSleeping
I have yet to hear any substantive evidence for any of his criticisms of the EU

Do you think the EU is perfect?

It’s fair enough to think that political leaders can make a difference. Which is why, on what turned out to be quite a close vote, the tepid and useless contribution of Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t receive enough attention.

Given that the left of Labour has never been particularly pro-EU - hence so many Labour areas voting leave in Labour’s northern heartlands - that’s not so surprising. For the MP for Islington North and then leader of the Labour opposition to be so coy on the referendum was very significant though.

Blame Corbyn.

And yet this latest attempt at accountability will be like water off a ducks back to them
😡

@BurntBroccoli Farage also exerted electoral pressure on the Tory Party. UKIP had experienced a surge in popularity, especially in the 2014 European Parliament elections where it won the most UK seats outperforming both Labour and the Conservatives. This rise played a major role in prompting David Cameron to include an EU referendum in the 2015 Conservative manifesto, widely seen as an attempt to counter UKIP’s growing influence.

@DenizenOfAisleOfShame Given that the left of Labour has never been particularly pro-EU - hence so many Labour areas voting leave in Labour’s northern heartlands - that’s not so surprising. For the MP for Islington North and then leader of the Labour opposition to be so coy on the referendum was very significant though.

Agree with both of these summaries. It was the PM and the Leader of the Opposition who were in the responsible positions.

Not at all, but it was beneficial to the UK economy. The way to change a club that is imperfect though is by remaining in it and influencing it from the inside as a part of it. Once one leaves, there is no further part to be played.

What the UK has discovered since leaving is that the club was actually beneficial.

There were many flawed things about the EU. There were many benefits. On balance, the benefits outweighed the flaws.

Still waiting,

Economics doesn't really work like that. There is no alternative universe we can look at where Brexit didn't happen and directly compare the two.

What they can do is advanced statistical modelling, comparing different economies etc

By asking for some definite proof you're showing yourself to be ignorant of how economics works as a discipline. Or you're just deliberately trying to deflect from the harm it caused. So what is it, ignorance or deflection?

Seriously? Ten years on from the vote and you still don't know the economic damage of Brexit?🤯🤯🤯 The damage was evident before Covid hit. It had been happening for over 3 years before Covid and 4 years before Putin went to war.😒

As you will already know, it isn't possible to do this precisely, however here is some analysis for you.
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexits-impact-on-the-uk-economy/
https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/the-economy-forecast/brexit-analysis/
https://www.nber.org/papers/w34459
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/new-research-finds-uk-investment-up-to-18-per-cent-lower-as-a-result-of-brexit
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.london.gov.uk/media/111689/download&ved=2ahUKEwi9puiNvIiVAxX2QkEAHV94LkUQFnoECEYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3GS2GQ8rE9n8obt_zwvf0F

Why not google it? The office for national statistics, the bank of england and the london school of economics amongst many many others have done studies doing just this.

Sorry but we’re the laughing stock of the world. There were ‘brexit’ style campaigns in the netherlands and scandinavia pre 2016. They’ve all shut down. The Danish equivalent of Nige literally gave a speech saying having seen what a sh1t-show it’s been for the UK he decided it was actually better to stay in the EU on balance. He shut down the Danish equivalent of UKIP.

But why don’t you look it up yourself if you’re interested rather than asking strangers online to do the work for you?

i can see someone has sent you links, i bet you won’t even read them before dismissing as biased in some way.

I always wonder what level of factual analysis would actually make people of this mindset change their minds?

BTW a lot of remoaners would have been pretty happy to be proved wrong. I’d rather not live in a miserable country that’s in a death spiral and can’t afford to repair its schools and hospitals. I’m not happy we’re f-cked.

Interesting that you are so concerned about others having what you deem to be "pointless" discussions about Brexit and yet that doesn't seem to prevent you from making utterly pointless comments of your own.
I'm not sure if you understand how mn works.
And, if anyone could answer my question about what all this 'discussion' (i.e. making sweeping allegations about the mental capacity and motivations of the people who vote differently from them) would acheive i'll be happy with that.

I have a slightly different perspective on this.

Yes I think all the named suspects deserve the severest criticism.

But for a slightly different reason. The UK is in relative decline. Look, for instance, how much richer the US has become over the last 20 years than the UK.

Brexit was not the cause of this decline which is long standing but has potentially contributed to it.

Those named leaders failed to even attempt to make a case for how they were going to build a strong independent prosperous UK prior to the referendum.

But there was a case to be made. There still is. Had the Brexit discussion been framed as part of a deliberate pivot of the UK to a more dynamic economy, with lower taxes, smaller, more efficient govt and a pro business growth economy, we could have done very well.

It would definitely have required big adjustments but we could have been a bigger Western version of Singapore and possibly super successful. Could still be. Economic growth, higher wages etc.

But by not doing this, by framing Brexit as a narrow choice with no real consequences for people positive or negative (other than the £350m pw for the NHS FFS) , by not leading the debate with a discussion of the sort of country we aspire to be, they were criminally derelict in their duty.

Since then with a succession of equally culpable spineless hand wringing politicians actually doing nothing different in the UK post Brexit than we were doing before, we have, as a result now got have all the disadvantages of not being members and taken advantage of none of the freedoms that could still be available to use.

This will be the damning verdict of history on our spineless and insipid leaders.

And that criticism continues to apply to Starmer, Burnham, Reeves and the rest because we could even now do things differently for the long term benefit of the country.

Rather than acknowledge that we are in a new factual situation and seek to take advantage of the freedoms we now have, they think padlocking themselves to EU policies without even being a member is the best idea they can come up with.

What pathetic people they are.

I’m with you. I was and always will be pro european. But given we are where we are i’d have preferred if they went in with an actual plan for how to make the best of it.

Problem is nowhere near a majority of the UK want what you outline which is a much smaller state, more personal accountability, less / no nhs etc. Most people don’t want that. I know plenty of lefties who voted brexit as they thought it would bring manufacturing and mining back to the UK (plonkers). And of course most people don’t want that either.

With labour’s massive majority starmer could have pushed through ‘a’ vision. Any vision. But of course he has none, add it to the pile of disappointments of his pathetic leadership

Um what ‘vision’?

Not entirely sure why a government that hasn’t even been in power 2 years should be held to account for the biggest and unfixable financial crisis and screw up others who were in power for 14 years brought about but there you go.

There is a reason the Tories ran for the hills and have no policies now.

Because having come to power with a promise to do the political equivalent of clean the Augean stables they have done nothing and watched the dung heap get bigger!

Because the first thing they did was to pay off the train drivers. They paid off the doctors yesterday. Because they increased taxes on employment without thinking it might impact on job destruction. Because they are economically illiterate.

Because the Renters Rights Bill is already backfiring. Because they borrow more money every year than they can pay back. Because they think the only answer to everything is to tax more.

Because they are in hock to the unions. To their own back benchers. Because people who vote for them are predominantly in the public sector so they can't properly reform our dire public services. Because they are not intelligent and debate like teenagers with no experience of the world.

Ah so many reasons!!!! Glad I got that off my chest. But they are honestly unutterably shite. And yes the last lot were too but these ones promised to do better.

I’ve never seen EU membership as an especially single party line, other than for the Brexit Party and UKIP, obviously.

But if you want to get all (main) party political about it, there’s little mileage in touting Labour as a policy machine. Starmer announces a policy one month and then abandons it the next.

As for the Tories bringing about Brexit, the Tory leadership was pro-remain. What the fuck were Labour doing about it under Corbyn?

Then we really shouldn't let a party into government that aims to turn us into a corrupt banana republic.

Which party is that? And why? And is the banana republic something to do with withdrawal from the ECHR?

Just so you’re aware Badenoch has no vision or plan re anything let alone the EU ,zilch and they are the party that got us into this mess! She can’t even remember who voted for what( no Kemi Ireland definitely didn’t vote to leave ) and was very pro Brexit so has zero excuse.Farage has come up with zilch too.

There is no vision because you can’t polish a turd and I 100% believe both the Tories and Reform now know that.

They screwed up massively and those that got us into this shit should be held to account.

It would definitely have required big adjustments but we could have been a bigger Western version of Singapore and possibly super successful. Could still be. Economic growth, higher wages etc. @KateSixer I didn't want to quote your whole post but this claim deserves further discussion

Do you really want to pivot to a Singaporean style economy?

The majority of the land owned by the state, 80% of people living in property also owned by the state. They get to buy a 99 year lease.

40% of Singaporean residents are foreign born, some who have become citizens, and some who are on work visas

With regards to the economy, as it's highly dependent on global trade so there's risk of shocks, the cost of living is very high, but they do have a high GDP.

The Singaporean economy is very centralised, finance, logistics, trade services etc, the UK one is far broader.

It's very much controlled centrally by the state.

They also have a really high Gini coefficient, a huge wages disparity

It's also an urban state, no farming or rural economy at all.

Reform, which wants to:

Withdraw from the ECHR
Withdraw from the UN Refugee Convention
Withdraw from the WHO
Withdraw from the UNFCCC / Paris Agreement

and which has strongly criticised the International Criminal Court.

Absolute banana republic ambitions there, as though isolation is a workable strategy in the 21st century. Clearly a ploy to significantly weaken Britain further by damaging our support network, institutions and alliances.

Okey dokey. I can’t bear Reform so can’t disagree there. And we do need to maintain international cooperation.

But I can’t see much of a case for remaining in the ECHR, or not simply repealing the HRA and un-domesticating Convention law.

The ECHR was intended to prevent a genocidal monster from rising again in continental Europe. Its mutation by interpretation into what we have today is another thing altogether. The ECtHR has lost its way. It’s not offering us anything that UK law couldn’t provide and is trampling on states’ proper jurisdiction. There are other signatory states that are voicing misgivings about the application of the Convention.

Jonathan Sumption is very good on this. I recommend his collection of essays.