Lucy Letby thread

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Starting this as don’t think we have a new one.

Most people would want the truth to be exposed in their situation and whilst it’s terrible what they’ve endured, the wider issues of the justice system and abysmal situation in maternity and neonatal care are too important to prioritise the feelings of the parents over a thorough excavation of what went on.

It’s also hard to believe that you’re on here bashing your keyboard literally every night for several hours because you’re concerned that a group of people you are not affiliated with might get upset.

As previously discussed, if the people having doubts weren't so vocal then we would be seeing very different stories in the media, all of the documentaries would have been pro guilt, that ITV drama might have went ahead etc etc, this provides balance.

Additionally, anyone berating others for upsetting the families would need to be very sure their own keyboard warrior antics weren't causing them any upset either. There's not a chance in hell any such person has up to date confirmation of what they all think.

You would but some people such as yourself seem think that it's helpful and empathetic to make out that there's no substance to the criticism of the evidence and instead people just fancy her or are big fans of hers or that because Shoo Lee didn't get enough credit for his work he assembled an expert panel for revenge to try to get her out.🙃

Surely that must be heaping on more upset for the parents and is worse to hear than the actual truth, which is that quite a few people are concerned that the evidence was deeply flawed and that the convictions are not safe, and they want this looked at again, so that if it wasn't Lucy Letby that an innocent person doesn't remain locked up and so that the right people are held accountable for what happened to the babies.

Most people would want the truth to be exposed in their situation and whilst it’s terrible what they’ve endured, the wider issues of the justice system and abysmal situation in maternity and neonatal care are too important to prioritise the feelings of the parents over a thorough excavation of what went on.

That's a separate issue. Doctors aren't perfect and the NHS certainly isn't. I could reel off all the mistakes in my own family members' care over the years. It has NOTHING to do with Letby attacking babies. Those hospital trusts didn't think to pin it on a nurse did they-because it's a ridiculous idea.

It’s also hard to believe that you’re on here bashing your keyboard literally every night for several hours because you’re concerned that a group of people you are not affiliated with might get upset.

I guess those on here nearly every night defending Letby must be affiliated with her then. But sure go on with your constant hinting I have some sort of "agenda"-it fits the conspiracy theorist mould to a tee.

Wow, tonight we’ve had “won’t someone think of the parents!” AND “defending a baby killer!” great work. Did you read the excellent article I posted earlier or listen to File on 4 tonight?

@Firefly1987

I guess those on here nearly every night defending Letby must be affiliated with her then. But sure go on with your constant hinting I have some sort of "agenda"-it fits the conspiracy theorist mould to a tee.

Pinktonic wasn't saying that you're pretending you're not affiliated with the families but that secretly you are 🙄You really try to twist everything.

Well there must be an awful lot of conspiracy theorists amongst the ranks of qualified and experienced health care professionals by your standards, you know, those people questioning the medical evidence that has no precedent or peer review in terms of methods of attack / murder. Those people who were raising questions immediately after the trial. Those people who were able to say from the get go that air down an NG tube and overfeeding by the methods suggested would have been highly implausible to pull off in a busy NICU. Those people unlikely to undermine their own professions and stick their heads above the parapet in a case like this.

Indeed, in my personal experience doctors tend to close ranks sharpish when challenged. It is extraordinary that so many raised the alarm and risked their reputations to do so. Yep, conspiracy theorists, the lot of them.

The transcript of tonight's Radio 4 programme is online:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LucyLetbyTrials/s/WpCM0hyCWK

The details are certainly distressing - if you want to skip to discussion of Lucy Letby's case you could search on the word "Pemberton".

She's been insinuating some sort of agenda (god knows what) for several pages, I've just ignored it up til now.

I've just read it. It beggars belief that these poor mothers had such shoddy care in the 21st century, and that they lost their children as a result.

I can testify to the general opinion among some medics that once a baby is delivered and considered allegedly stable, anything anomalous / traumatic about a birth is discounted to a large degree if a child becomes unwell or similar in the weeks after birth.

It is utterly criminal that in Lucy Letbys case this attitude prevailed. The gravity of these matters for all involved deserved much more scrutiny than was afforded. How a birth process that ends up with a baby in NICU can be dismissed as irrelevant when that baby dies and the cause is disputed absolutely beggars belief.

I cannot fully express how sad and angry I am for all the poor bereaved parents.

It reads to me like she's calling out your hypocrisy and you're taking it wrong and thinking she's making out you have an agenda instead.

Like for example saying she doesn't believe you're posting here all the time just because you're so full of empathy for the parents, so basically stop trying to use the 'think of the parents line' to shut other people up.

Or when she said you accuse others of hand-waving and being biased but you're not some innocent bystander yourself, like you're clearly completely biased so who are you to be moaning about other people and how they haven't seem to considered x or y or z....

You've probably put more words out into the public yourself than Christopher Morris has!

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your words @PinkTonic 😅 You are a lot more diplomatic than me.

Yes - we are back to the fact that Evans claimed his allegations were difficult to prove but depended on eliminating all other possible causes. How on earth could he eliminate all other possible causes with neither the records nor the specialist skills to consider the obstetrics?

Has Evans ever outlined how he ruled out other causes? I'd be interested to read that.

How did he determine the original pathologist's findings were wrong? What other causes did he consider, and how did he rule those out? Everything I've read points to him deciding on the cause from the outset and manipulating evidence to prove it, which is the opposite of a diagnosis by exclusion.

DD was diagnosed with POTS by exclusion, and it took months of tests; every possible cause was considered and ruled out, even conditions which almost but didn't quite fit her symptoms. Evans doesn't appear to have even considered other causes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/lucyletby/comments/16kbr0s/interview_with_dr_dewi_evans_by_psychiatrist_raj/

It's clear he didn't properly rule them out.

So, by ruled out other factors, what he meant to say was, "I can't make the other factors look like murder therefore I will ignore them"?

Which appears to be how most of the evidence in this case was handled.

As Shoo Lee pointed out, if you use failed resuscitation as your indicator of murder, you're just assuming babies never die of natural causes. Sadly, but obviously, they do.

The police and Dewi have hid behind this 'we ruled out other explanations' this whole time and when doing their victory lap, but they're going to have to concede eventually that they did not, because it's quite clear that the claim is completely not true, even now it's clear that many are doing whatever possible to still avoid looking at other causes.

I see on the lucy letby sub that the BBC episode gets the most briefest of discussion in the weekly discussion post, of course the God mod on there seemed to do a single post for each chapter of Chris Morris's book.

The BBC episode was harrowing, I see the BBC have today said they have seen evidence the defence did request the maternity notes but they were not released.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm2g93n0j2ko

I see on the lucy letby sub that the BBC episode gets the most briefest of discussion in the weekly discussion post, of course the God mod on there seemed to do a single post for each chapter of Chris Morris's book

I went over and looked at that sub last night to see and yep, sure enough, minor post in weekly discussions. All I can say is it must be a full time job finding ways to rubbish all aspects of the serious discourse, and pretty abysmal to still end up looking that vacuous and stupid.

Yep, it's willful ignorance at a pathological level.

If they had congenital abnormalities not compatible with life, which is the case for some of the babies she wasn't charged with. Otherwise stable babies that just need a bit of extra help do not suddenly collapse and cannot be resuscitated.

And in this case the babies were not as stable as the prosecution made out, and also the babies often didn't get the help that they needed because the staff were missing signs that they needed help.

You are hugely minimising the risks associated with the various conditions that meant the babies were in the NNU.

Baby A (died) needed resuscitation at birth. There was evidence of blood clots commensurate with receiving antibodies from his mother who had antiphospholipid syndrome.

Baby B (survived) was Baby A’s twin. Her long line was not heparinised and blood tests indicated blood clots.

Baby C (died) was unquestionably very unwell with severe IUGR and signs of bowel obstruction. Resuscitation failed in part because intubation attempts failed.

Baby D (died) required respiratory support at birth. Antibiotics were not given to mother or baby despite PROM in a timely manner and she developed pneumonia.

I can and will go on, but later.

This

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5557625-lucy-letby

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