To run a cub scout camp

[Scoutleader01809]

I am a man without children in his 20s but my mum said it's ok for me to ask questions here so here goes.

I have been a Cub (8-10 boys and girls) scout leader for about 10 years, running a week-long camp in the summer, less than an hour drive away from home, for those 10 years minus Covid. Past few years have become harder and harder to get signups.

I have great memories and experiences from camps I did at that age and older, every year the kids enjoy themselves on camp. It's hugely shaped me to become the adult I am today and most of my freinds are people I went to scouts with. I honestly believe scouting is a great organisation for teaching kids resilience and independence, and that's why I give up 5+ hours a week to scouting.

This year in particular has been a nightmare, almost none of the parents want to send their kids, camp is about £200 but it's an affluent area, we offer discounts to those who need so I doubt it's the cost. Some are genuinely on holiday but a lot of them genuinely insist it's to much for their child often telling me about how 20 years ago in brownies they didn't enjoy camping or that they would miss their child (am I wrong to think that they shouldn't worry about whether they will miss their child but only whether their child will have a good time?).

I hear about a lot of groups who have trouble running overnights and assumed their leaders were the probelm but now starting to question if that's just the parents of today.

I have a WhatsAppgroup with the parents and put photos in of the kids everyday enjoying themselves, I had to make it admins only a few years ago when the parents ask stupid questions like why does my child look tired, why are they wearing a jumper, I now get those questions in DM.

The kids sleep in canvas tents, sing campfire songs, do activities like archery and kayaking, play in the woods, I can't get how being on a screen or sitting bored in holiday camp is even remotely comparable.

I might cancel the camp, I might suffer through the 5 parents who have 'volunteered to help' to come along as a condition to their children attending then just stop running longer camps and only do 1 or 2 night camps. Ultimately, they're less prepared for longer scout and explorer camps, and it's a spiral until you get 18-year-olds unready to go to university.

I don't get it, I know I don't have kids and maybe I will feel different if/ when I do but I don't feel I am a bad person for suggesting their children would benefit from some experiences away from their parents.

YABU- You're the pied piper of hamelin
YANBU- Parents are being to precious and camp sounds great

My husband was a scout leader for 10 years. Beavers and then cubs as well as group scout leader. They ran a joint camp for beavers/cubs/scouts every year (beavers needed to come with a parent). They were extremely popular and the vast majority of the kids took part. However, they were only 1-2 nights, very nearby and very cheap.

I think that at that age, a week away camping without parents is a long time. You need to do shorter camps for this age, then longer camps at scouts. My daugther did a week with guides I think. Or maybe 5 days-ish?

Squirrels leader here. My eldest has been through beavers, cubs and now is in scouts.

I think a week is too long for cubs. Our cubs do weekends max and then a week for the scouts. So I think some of the resistance will be the length.

Also the ethos of your group and the parents and their reason for wanting kids in scouts might play a part, as well as for some parents coordinating childcare for multiple children in the summer hols along side work.

By ethos of group I mean what do beavers do and what do scouts do, are you generally a really outdoorsy group.

We switched groups when ny eldest was a cub because it wasn’t outdoorsy enough. They did a lot at the hut and very little outdoors and few camps. Current group lost of camping throughout the year and for scouts a week every summer.

At my eldest’s school, in year 4 they do a 3 night residential. To a place like PGL, some parents followed the coach to its destination, put Apple tags in kids backpacks and stayed in a travel lodge local to where they are. All documented on the class WhatsApp. This was just 3 or 4 parents in a class of 30. But this shocked me.

And by why parents have put into scouting, in a previous group I was a leader at, some parents were happy for their kids to do the weekly meetings but nothing else. For some that was sports dominated the weekend.

A week is just two long.
My children wouldn't have interested in that at all.
2 nights max was enough for them for these type of camps that we went on.
They missed home comforts...clearly my children are soft, as am I.
2 nights was more than enough for me!

I think that's harsh. I'm sure it's not about the Christmas cards per se. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want a little bit of appreciation from parents for your efforts. It doesn't feel great when you are giving it your all and parents treat you as a paid (but cheap) childminding service to use or abuse as they feel fit.

my son is a beaver and his camps are 1-2 nights, he’s been once so far. I was nervous for him to go but I really wanted him to build independence and resilience. He was nervous but he was also excited.
it was challenging for him but he enjoyed it and wants to go again. They did a big hike, climbing, camp fire and crafts. He got about 3 minutes sleep!

i think a lot of parents molly coddle. I have been thinking that a lot recently for different reasons.

that said, I wonder if you ran a little question and answer session for parents and kids about the camps before hand that included how various risks are managed that might help?

thank you for giving up your time to provide this experience for the kids

‘Parents are being precious’ isn’t a solution, it doesn’t help you. What do parents want? Ask them.

Personally I think a week is too long at that age, two nights would be great.

I’d be very concerned about your relying on parent volunteers rather than proper leaders. You say they’re only going to keep an eye on their own child. They’ll be an interfering liability and you’ll spend half your time trying to manage them - meaning no-one has proper oversight of the children.

Proper leaders plus rogue parents - maybe but I’d still be concerned about the distraction, biases and incompetence they’d introduce. It would put me off sending my child.

Why did Beavers need to come with a parent? One of the main reasons for camp is to develop independence.

I do Rainbows camp (ages 5-7) and we have never had a parent on a residential- partly for above reason, and partly because they would all have to be DBS'd for a residential which is a faff for 1 night.

Absolutely. It's not about cards and presents. But a message saying 'thanks for all your hard work, my child had a brilliant time' goes a long way. As does parents stepping up and volunteering an hour a term to help with sessions where we need more adults, such as fire building, trips to park etc.

Rather than the parent who went crazy at me in front of the other parents because her daughter lost her uniform hoodie 'how do you expect me to trust you with my child when you can't even keep track of her jumper, are you stupid or something'. It scared a number of the children, including my own child. They were asked to find someone else to bring their child or find an alternative unit.

Although the number of parents who think we actually get paid is crazy!

I dislike relying on parent volunteers as well but I am down to 2 and a half leaders without them. I can't magic up more 'proper leaders', I have asked, a lot and it has got me some leaders over time but it's a volunteer role.

Yes, they will be an interfering liablity but I will just have to manage that on top of the Cubs.

I am anxious about the thought of leaving some of our parents to run a base, they look so frightened of a large group of children it's comical.

I'll put my hands up and say that's fair. My boys are late 20s now but did beavers and cubs 20 years ago. I did the usual parent rota and went on a cub camp. I used to find it terrifying. I guess my boys were compliant and well behaved, I had no experience of children who were defiant, didn't listen, argued or were downright rude and disrespectful. It was an eye opener in many ways, these other kids were the ones at school with mine and I learnt a new respect for people who work with children.

Quite often the children expect you to be a teacher.
One day I said something like "at my job as a.... " and children said " oh, aren't this your job?". Okay we need a chat.

I have never had a Christmas card or anything. Never thought of it.

Parents are more and more demanding. It's now and not next meeting if they want something "will you please sort!". And children are harder work than 10 years ago.

As said I have scaled back engagement but still run weekly meetings. I have a job, other hobbies and family and I want to do some of the 'grown up things' like courses, jamborees and international work.

Tbh I think a lot of GG and scouts' groups are closing in near future because of lack of qualified leaders.

Is that normal for Scouting? I’ve never heard of parent volunteers in girl guiding. DD’s unit has 3 Owls, although one just had a baby so not sure she’s doing a lot at the moment, and they seem to manage camps and trips fine. Think they might draw on resources from the guiding group above and get some help from Rangers girls as needed but never ever from parents. I don’t think I’d feel very comfortable with that, they could be anyone and it also stops it being properly independent.

We ask for parent volunteers for meetings, day trips. But not for residentials. If we do have them they are paired with a qualified leader. Rainbow ratio outside the hut is 1 adult to 4/5 girls. So a parent plus a leader will have a group of 8-9 girls between us, they will never be left alone with the girls.

Fully agree with the independence thing, but most leaders will have their children go through guiding. We try as far as possible to not help on the trips where our children are, to give then independence, but that can be challenging for having enough leaders

Not unheard in GG of but DBS is done.
I have seen parents take care of lunch and dinner on residentials but not running activities.

My DS is a Cub and no I wouldn't do a week long summer camp. He is doing a 2 nighter this weekend but that is about as long as we would do. Not just us as parents, he also wouldn't want to do longer.
My DS also would have evening commitments even in summer so we would look for a day things rather than overnight in the summer. I would love there to be a day summer camp available for DS around Cubs. He would love that.

I was a Cub leader for 6 years - now Explorers. I found that after lockdown, very few parents wanted their kids to go away overnight, sharing sleeping accomodation etc. The cubs of today are the toddlers and preschoolers of lockdown. In my experience, they are quite a risk averse generation of parents and children a whole.

Also - £200 is a good price for a week of residential camp, but it is still a big chunk of cash. I know you say you’re in an affluent area, but you don’t truly know every family’s financial arrangements.

A week is a long time, especially when you are 8.

5 people is not a lot of adults for that period of time. I’m not going to look up POR for you, and I don’t know where you’re going or how many Cubs you plan to take, but that feels like quite a low ratio.

Safeguarding! Very much more a consideration for parents of young dc of both sexes than ever before. Is your safeguarding plan clear? For sleeping arrangements ? Land activities ? Watersports? How many first aiders? How will you identify allergies?

More people working flexibly = less need for holiday activities for kids.

You may think your camps are more fun than screens, but you’re pushing against a digital generation. Could you build in some of the digital maker type badges?

Not everyone wants to spend their free time rampaging around the outdoors for a week. Cook badge? Musician stuff?

Have the Cubs & their carers had any input to the programme for the week?

When is it? First week of school hols is unlikey to be popular - families either away at that first opportunity, or kids are shattered from the academic year and need to crash.

We don’t do more than 2 nights away at once until our young people get to Explorers/DoE stage.

Having said all that - 10 years ago, I’d have bitten your arm off for this.

Give the bunk house trips a try! It's not camping, but it doesn't have to be. It still has lots of the elements that make it an adventure for the kids - away from home, staying in dorms with your friends, doing new activities etc - just not the tent bits. I'm a Brownie leader and we don't camp, because we don't have the kit and frankly I don't like camping that much! We do at least two weekend residentials a year and get good signup rates, the girls who come say that pack holiday is one of their favourite bits of Brownies. So don't write it off just because it doesn't involve tents.

I agree with everyone else that 5 days is probably just too long for many kids that age, especially if they've not done shorter ones already. I do 2 nights with the Brownies and I'm knackered after that, I'm not sure I'd manage 5! From my own memory of Guides 30 years ago, we generally only did 3 nights (usually a bank holiday weekend) apart from going on bigger County/international camps which were longer. My son's Cubs seem to only do 2-3 nights at a time - and they stay indoors for their winter "camp" in December! He would not manage well for longer than that.

It's a shame that your other leaders object to shortening camp, but maybe you need to ask them frankly what they'd prefer: a "proper" 5 day camp which nobody goes on, or a weekend one which gets loads of kids trying their first camp?!

OP - think "youth-led". If your young people prefer bunkhouse camps, do it! It is still Scouting, they're still learning skills for life and having fun according to the Scout Values.

Example: I asked our older Scouts about their Expedition Challenge - did they want to do the traditional hike-camp-hike, or did they want to travel on public transport and explore somewhere? They universally chose the latter, so that's what we're doing.

Go shorter to start off with

What age is cubs? 7-10 ish?
My oldest is 10, youngest is 7. We dont have issues with parents being risk averse. In our Rainbows (5-7) and Brownies (7-10) we consistently get high uptake on residentials, to the point we have to say ' places will be released at 7pm on X date, first 20 who have consent form and payment in only'. Within an hour all the places are gone.

Scout camp is first week of holidays fir us, booking opens September before following Julys camp, again, fully booked within a few hours of release.

Both scouts and guides in our village have huge wait lists, and our experience is parents are really embracing these opportunities for their children. They are recognising the dangers of screen addiction and helicopter parenting and trying to combat this

Our Cub camps are incredibly popular. Near 100% attendance for the last one. I think the problem is cost and the length. Kids have so many commitments and it only takes on commitment on any one day of the week to make it impossible for that child to attend.

Throw it open to neighbouring packs?

Thanks for doing all you do. It is very much appreciated.

(I was so tempted to say Dib, dib, dib, but that would have been childish and dated so I didn't.)

It's dyb dyb dyb anyway 😉 (acronym for Do Your Best, of course!)

£200 is a lot - you can get a week of 9-5 multi-activity holiday club for a lot less than that.

With 3 meals, plus snacks / supper / drinks, and overnight care ?
Really ?
Tell me where.

I also feel like 10 years ago I could do more fun, adventurous activites, maybe this cohort is a blip but the needs of these kids is so high (I suppose that's part of why 5 days just isn't wanted anymore), if I don't do a 20 minute game at the start of the session involving running, they can't even do 5 minutes of listening to instructions, sometimes even then they still haven't processed anything I said.

In fairness, when I started running our cub pack in 1984, that would be the format for the evening. It is ALWAYS what I recommended when delivering training, long before covid. The dc have been at school all day. They come to evening activities for something that is completely different, not another lesson like a school lesson. Exercise and movement is key for most children, and always has been.