To run a cub scout camp

[Scoutleader01809]

I am a man without children in his 20s but my mum said it's ok for me to ask questions here so here goes.

I have been a Cub (8-10 boys and girls) scout leader for about 10 years, running a week-long camp in the summer, less than an hour drive away from home, for those 10 years minus Covid. Past few years have become harder and harder to get signups.

I have great memories and experiences from camps I did at that age and older, every year the kids enjoy themselves on camp. It's hugely shaped me to become the adult I am today and most of my freinds are people I went to scouts with. I honestly believe scouting is a great organisation for teaching kids resilience and independence, and that's why I give up 5+ hours a week to scouting.

This year in particular has been a nightmare, almost none of the parents want to send their kids, camp is about £200 but it's an affluent area, we offer discounts to those who need so I doubt it's the cost. Some are genuinely on holiday but a lot of them genuinely insist it's to much for their child often telling me about how 20 years ago in brownies they didn't enjoy camping or that they would miss their child (am I wrong to think that they shouldn't worry about whether they will miss their child but only whether their child will have a good time?).

I hear about a lot of groups who have trouble running overnights and assumed their leaders were the probelm but now starting to question if that's just the parents of today.

I have a WhatsAppgroup with the parents and put photos in of the kids everyday enjoying themselves, I had to make it admins only a few years ago when the parents ask stupid questions like why does my child look tired, why are they wearing a jumper, I now get those questions in DM.

The kids sleep in canvas tents, sing campfire songs, do activities like archery and kayaking, play in the woods, I can't get how being on a screen or sitting bored in holiday camp is even remotely comparable.

I might cancel the camp, I might suffer through the 5 parents who have 'volunteered to help' to come along as a condition to their children attending then just stop running longer camps and only do 1 or 2 night camps. Ultimately, they're less prepared for longer scout and explorer camps, and it's a spiral until you get 18-year-olds unready to go to university.

I don't get it, I know I don't have kids and maybe I will feel different if/ when I do but I don't feel I am a bad person for suggesting their children would benefit from some experiences away from their parents.

YABU- You're the pied piper of hamelin
YANBU- Parents are being to precious and camp sounds great

OP, I think a week long at scouts level is fine, but not cubs. Our local scouts do a week long camp at start of school holidays. It's capped at 20, and apparently it's fully booked within a day of release in September for the following July. They do 2 years UK then 1 year abroad and so on, so every child gets at least 1 abroad option. The demand for long camps is definitely there, just maybe not at cub level.

Yes I would do this. My DS is a Beaver so no overnights yet but I know the Cubs and Scouts just have a couple of weekends away- one at Christmas, one in the summer. A week is probably too long for the 8 year olds, the 10 year olds are fine.

I went through scouts myself, was a young leader for a while, my kids go now and I’m generally very supportive of the movement.

I would probably not send my kids on a week long Cub camp. The activities sound lovely, and perfect for scouting, and I’m 100 percent in agreement with getting them off screens. But, in my opinion, a whole week is too long without parents for an 8 or 9 year old.

Our cub camps are capped at 2 nights, which works really well, and then scouts go for a week. Even when I was a scout (35 years ago!) cubs wouldn’t have been taken away for a week.

My eldest is 11 and going for a week for the first time this year, which feels right. My youngest is 9 and has some additional needs so hasn’t camped without me there before, he’ll do a couple of nights by himself from next year.

Both my kids have done Beavers/cubs/scouts and my daughter also went to rainbows and is now in brownies. So lots of experience of camps. Most have been 1 - 2 nights and my daughter (8) who is otherwise very confident, outgoing, loves all the activites, lots of friends in both her cubs and brownies group, etc. still doesn't like to go for longer than 1 night. I don't think that's strange in children of that age and I definitely don't think it's a signal of future problems with independence as an adult.

My son is 10, recently went up to scouts and will go on a 4 night camp this summer. I think we'll all feel like that's a very long time for him to be away, he will struggle with how tired he is after the first couple of nights although I'm sure he'll have a great time. It did also mean we had to book our family holiday at an earlier point than we wanted to which cost more and fits less well with other summer/childcare plans - I wouldn't underestimate how much a week's camp can mess up summer planning which is not easy for working parents

School residentials a our school are 1 night in yr4, 2 nights in yr5 and 3 nights in yr6.

Would suggest a few weekend camps instead of a full week.

It’s too long and too expensive (girlguide leader)
We’ve found since Covid parents and children more reluctant to have overnight trips.
They won’t have even been on a school residential at that age.
We find for brownies age going locally and 2 nights maximum is popular and signed up to. Then build up as get older. Weekends trips are still popular at Guide age though, everyone is busy and it keeps costs down.
It’s a big deal sending your child away and parents need to have utmost confidence in you. I get that as a mum.
Some is just sign of times and you can’t please everyone. Yes to some parents telling children constantly they’ll miss them/the pets are missing them. Things like sharing photos is a double edged sword - why isn’t Katie there (she was she just ducked behind friend) Marie looks tired etc.

My eldest is in cubs, he goes on all the camps but they are only ever 2 nights and he is exhausted afterwards. Its mainly because they're on the go constantly doing activities, running around with thier friends then up around the fire till 10pm. Stick to weekends.

I am jaded to an extent, I have been doing it for a long time. I have done a lot of these activities ten times as an adult and now I work full time plus so I am trying to fit scouting ontop of a life of own, but if I walked away, the section would close and possibly the group at this point.

I also feel like 10 years ago I could do more fun, adventurous activites, maybe this cohort is a blip but the needs of these kids is so high (I suppose that's part of why 5 days just isn't wanted anymore), if I don't do a 20 minute game at the start of the session involving running, they can't even do 5 minutes of listening to instructions, sometimes even then they still haven't processed anything I said. I don't have enough leaders, especially leaders who have any skills themselves, and I just can't give the Cubs knives anymore. Fires is generally a bust now because they haven't listened to what I said enough to actually start a fire and I don't have 5 adults who can light a fire to show each group one at a time. Possibly I need to invest time in training the adults I have so we can actually do these activities with the Cubs.

Phones, I have told parents they're not allowed to bring them but it's galling I have to say this in the first place. Uniform, I feel bad about insisting to parents on buying uniform especially things like the trousers but I know the bulk of them can so maybe I should insist.

Discipline, I am the only leader right now who is actually willing to tell the kids off, we're also reliant on a parent rota so a lot of adults who don't know the kids names, and then I feel like a prison warden (despite that I am also the only leader who the kids ask can they go to the toilet or get a drink of water so I don't think they see me as an ogre), maybe I need to say to the other leaders that it's not just about showing up but they need to take a more active role in communicating with the cubs.

My children both did unframed groups from the moment they could to the moment they aged out. Not many people did go on the camps ever, was never about the money. People these days seem to have their whole personality wrapped up in their kids. I loved the 4 night camps, would blitz the kids rooms! It isn't you. We took the uniformed groups really seriously, kids were young leaders etc. Basically not everyone does as much as you and I might do.

Groups my daughter was a young leader in and I would go in to help with badges was exactly like this. Not how I remember the groups. 3 leaders and 8 parent helpers, lots of really good quality activities (affluent area) like model planes, pony visits, circus visits and all the kids want to do is run around and smack each other. On the night they ran scouts has got talent there was uproar that there was a winner picked - at least half a dozen sets of parents went on the group chat and were livid their kid was upset they hadn't won! Some ten year old children were genuinely hysterical about it. When I did a badge I did a simple sheet that literally needed 5 pictures circling and most refused to do it, they still got the badge though (vastly different to published criteria). I am glad my kids aged out so it isn't my problem anymore. 2 years on and all leaders have left.

The parents of these kids have a lot to answer for.

Leader burnout is a real issue, for sure. I nearly walked away last year because I'd ended up taking on too much and then buckled under the weight.

@Scoutleader01809 I’ve been a guide, brownie and ranger leader for a long time- my DD took over from me, she’s having a break from MN atm, but this is what she’s just said:
“Poor bloke.
Have you replied to this thread?
I’m not a registered poster on Mumsnet anymore but if you wanted to share my thoughts as a Guide leader with nearly 30 years experience and 22 years running camps (over 200 nights away) with ages 7-19….

• 1 night indoors for Squirrels/Rainbows
• 2-3 nights indoors or fixed camp for younger Brownies/Cubs
• up to 7 nights for Guides/Scouts but the 10-12 year olds are often unsure of anything over 3-4 nights, though if you can persuade them to try it once, they tend to have a blast and come back next time
• no limits for Rangers/Explorers (I did 12 nights in Sweden with Rangers, best trip ever).

Parents are definitely more protective now than before COVID and smartphones have changed everything. Make it very clear that anyone under Ranger/Explorer age is not allowed to take their phone, and even they are expected to use it discreetly in a limited way. No charging facilities are provided. They can phone home if they want, using a leader phone, and we send one update per day with a photo of happy kids to parents. Nobody has ever asked for more! I’ve always thought that we need to let the girls keep something to tell the parents about when they get home!
When we tell parents about the phone rule, they are almost without exception pleased that phones are banned!

We have an overflowing Guide group and a larger than average Ranger group.
We get about 95% attendance at our winter indoor residential which is two nights and tends to cost about £60. Summer camps vary from 4 night basic camps to 7 night jamborees. This year we are going to a large scale international camp, and charging them £355 per guide for 6 nights of full on activity. I have worked hard to obtain grants to ensure that everyone who wanted to go can (fully covering the cost for 2 girls, including money for kit, and subsidising several others). Attendance varies - this year we have 21 attending from a possible 34.
This camp is in the second week of the summer holidays and there are girls who wanted to come but can’t as they will be away with their families, and a couple who said it’s too long to be away.

We live in an averagely well off area - parents tend to be working ’normal’ jobs, nobody is super well off, but the cost is not the biggest issue for them. I’ve had plenty of comments about how it’s good value. Prices have gone up in recent years though - the days of budgeting £5 per person per night for food are long gone.

We are very lucky in that we have plenty of Leaders to run these camps (myself as the licence holder plus 4 other qualified leaders and 2 18+ young leaders) and we don’t need to rely on parent helpers. In fact I don’t like taking parents, because they invariably focus on their own child rather than the group and the child can be clingy and reliant on the parent.

Also, I refuse to offer camps of less than 3 nights because the pitching and striking of camp is such hard work, by the time everything’s set up it’s time to take it all down again if you’re only staying 2 nights. You need a breather in between!”

I hope this helps!

She also says- are you clear about how many nights, are parents seeing “week” and thinking 7 nights? Also, how much notice do you give parents- are you allowing enough time for them to plan their annual leave and save up?

And finally, about cost- break it down for parents, she says this:

“And so may people saying too expensive - I’d ask how they think groups could get the costs any lower?
£10 per day for food and consumables
£9 a day campsite
Plus £25 for two onsite activities (maybe archery in the morning, abseiling in the afternoon?)
A bit towards the cost of maintaining kit
All adds up”

I would second everything she says, I hope it helps you.
Dont give up! Scouting and Guiding are great for kids- our young people can get so much from it! Good luck!

Trousers? Why insist on that? Isn't it just asking psrents to spend more money?
I have never had trousers nor my children. I thought they were considered optional in UK.

I have also never had scouting trousers including as a leader. I know some leaders did for parades.

For cubs the mandatory stuff was a jumper, a scarf and a polo shirt if you wanted to take the jumper off.

In theory the kids should wear these https://www.scout-and-guide-shop.co.uk/products/activity-trousers rather than showing up in leggings or tracksuits, they look smarter and have better pockets but some children will only wear leggings or tracksuits and then I can't be bothered to insist the others wear these.

Then they don't show up with scarfs and just say they lost it week after week.

I was a Beaver leader for 7 years. When I left we told the kids I had been a leader for their whole lives 😀. I went on longer Scout camps as a child, but was very glad we only did one overnight. That was tiring enough for me!

Same her as a GG leader. My family is a mix of GG and scouts and no one has ask us to pay for trousers.

Being a GG or scout isn't cheap in gear, camps and trips so I seen no reasons to add more costs.

But trousers are optional in UK?

If your children can't handle a scarf why add another item? Why bother?

Our girls do quite well wearing uniforms but we don't ask for trousers.

Why are you doing the same activities ten times? Therein lies issues. The kids will be repeating things they've already done. You are bored too, which isn't helping. If you are going through the motions the kids will feel it. Likewise if you are enjoying yourself, the kids will.

Re fires. You can do fires, you just need to work slightly differently. If you don't have enough people who can do them, you do a rotation week were there's multi bases that the parents CAN manage and you do the fire base. You do it across two weeks if necessary.

There are lots of ways to do things a bit differently or to engage better. I think one of the traps some of the other groups across our district have is precisely because they are just doing the same stuff. You need to do Scout stuff for 2026 though.

If you do interesting stuff, the parents are more willing to help out even if they aren't full on leaders. Our rule is actually to engage the adults too because that just helps the kids as well.

Talk to scout leaders in other groups for new ideas. There will be things you can do to get yourself out of the rut you are in.

Thanks. I put up the dates of the camp early but didn't put out signups quite early enough due to work and I think that meant some of them had already booked things where they might have been willing to attend (mind you some of the holidays they're going on, I struggle to believe £200 is an inhibitor for more than one or 2 who I do tell about discounts and for them cost is normally £100 though can't rule out some being to proud to ask) so there is some of that.

Weekend camps I get above 50% attendance on and from seeing this thread I may well just move to only doing those. It is a pain because by the time you put up camp you have lost best part of a day, then have one day to do some activites, then pack down and go home.

I don't like bunkhouses on principle, it's not camping, we have a good supply of camping equipment and we should use it but if we're going to do more weekend camps, maybe one of them should be in a bunkhouse. When I do a sleepover at the hut I get 80% attendance.

Parents come on these camps sometimes, they're mostly useless and just follow their children around the entire time.

It is just a different world to my own memories of being a Cub, if I want to still be involved in scouting I guess I need to be flexible about how we run things.

Firstly, thank you for volunteering your time to such a good cause.
My kids have been cubs/ scouts for many years.
I think it's absolutely the cost and the length of time.
Our cubs have 2 nights away twice a year, costing £25/£30 - they do get a grant to help with costs, It's ALWAYS full capacity.
Scouts do a 4 night stay, but no where near £200 - most people could not afford that.
Most 8/10 year olds would not be comfortable staying so long away from home.
Don't let it disheartened you, just reduce the time.

Don't expect the parents to think twice about it. For most parents a scout/GG camp is just another holiday camp.

I try not to repeat things within a year but yes I defintely run a very similar calendar each time and the Cubs are only there for 2 and a half years so it doesn't feel like they notice but I guess I notice myself. I get the same demands for the 3 same games at the begining of every session.

I am anxious about the thought of leaving some of our parents to run a base, they look so frightened of a large group of children it's comical.

Other groups in the district and county are smaller and less active than we, at this point I have more help from AI in planning the program than I do anyone else.

You're right though, don't blame the kids or parents, I need to fix my feelings of frustration myself and it will feed down to them.

If you get 80% attendance for a weekend sleepover at the clubhouse and over 50% for weekend camping that should tell you something. I’d put your own principles about ‘proper camping’ aside and focus on what the kids actually want. An activity weekend with a bunkhouse would probably mean a great turn out, everyone has a wonderful time and hours aren’t lost to putting up tents.
Oh and do the type of trousers they wear really matter, so long as they’re appropriate for being active? Brownies have leggings as their uniform and don’t seem held back by a lack of pockets… It’s also gone out of fashion to wear the sash. Things do change, it’s why the uniform has a refresh every so often.
And you’ve been amazing to volunteer for so long but if your heart isn’t in it anymore then equally it’s fine to stop. Don’t feel guilted into continuing if what the kids want these days is just not what you want to be doing with your spare time.

I would do a big crack down on phones. If you are a big group it won't be helping you. Get tough about it and say to parents, repeat offenders will be asked to leave. You will be amazed at how the parents will squeal but actually you will just lose the ones who don't want to engage anyway. It will make your life easier.

Big groups are particularly hard to manage so on that one I feel your pain. And yes parents do freak out at the prospect of being tasked to do something, but thrown in the deep end they don't have a lot of choice but to do it. You quickly work out which parents can be trusted with more complex tasks and which ones can't. I don't particularly like doing it, but if it's infrequently it's not too bad as it's at least fair.

Our group operates a system where parents HAVE to volunteer at least per cycle except in exceptional circumstances. It also means the parents don't take it for granted quite so much and it enables more activities.

What games do they like? They should be rewards at the end of the night if you have a little time rather than main activities. Again it's about carrot and stick. Give them incentive to engage.

I think your head has gone down and it's about you finding a way to relove doing scouting. You will get there, it just requires a bit of a refresh I suspect.

Absolutely. In Girlguiding we ask that they have the uniform polo shirt and hoodie (and have 2nd hand options for £1 for anyone who struggles to buy) so they are nore easily identified when out on trips. There are uniform trousers available, some chose to wear, some don't.