To run a cub scout camp

[Scoutleader01809]

I am a man without children in his 20s but my mum said it's ok for me to ask questions here so here goes.

I have been a Cub (8-10 boys and girls) scout leader for about 10 years, running a week-long camp in the summer, less than an hour drive away from home, for those 10 years minus Covid. Past few years have become harder and harder to get signups.

I have great memories and experiences from camps I did at that age and older, every year the kids enjoy themselves on camp. It's hugely shaped me to become the adult I am today and most of my freinds are people I went to scouts with. I honestly believe scouting is a great organisation for teaching kids resilience and independence, and that's why I give up 5+ hours a week to scouting.

This year in particular has been a nightmare, almost none of the parents want to send their kids, camp is about £200 but it's an affluent area, we offer discounts to those who need so I doubt it's the cost. Some are genuinely on holiday but a lot of them genuinely insist it's to much for their child often telling me about how 20 years ago in brownies they didn't enjoy camping or that they would miss their child (am I wrong to think that they shouldn't worry about whether they will miss their child but only whether their child will have a good time?).

I hear about a lot of groups who have trouble running overnights and assumed their leaders were the probelm but now starting to question if that's just the parents of today.

I have a WhatsAppgroup with the parents and put photos in of the kids everyday enjoying themselves, I had to make it admins only a few years ago when the parents ask stupid questions like why does my child look tired, why are they wearing a jumper, I now get those questions in DM.

The kids sleep in canvas tents, sing campfire songs, do activities like archery and kayaking, play in the woods, I can't get how being on a screen or sitting bored in holiday camp is even remotely comparable.

I might cancel the camp, I might suffer through the 5 parents who have 'volunteered to help' to come along as a condition to their children attending then just stop running longer camps and only do 1 or 2 night camps. Ultimately, they're less prepared for longer scout and explorer camps, and it's a spiral until you get 18-year-olds unready to go to university.

I don't get it, I know I don't have kids and maybe I will feel different if/ when I do but I don't feel I am a bad person for suggesting their children would benefit from some experiences away from their parents.

YABU- You're the pied piper of hamelin
YANBU- Parents are being to precious and camp sounds great

Beaver leader here, how active are the beaver section for camps/nights away? We do minimum 5 nights away per year with beavers. Fri-Sun every term (autumn term is sometimes a 1 nighters depending on when we hold it) by the time they get to cubs there are plenty of kids that are experienced at camping and happy to go to camp for a week. They went in the May half term to Hertfordshire Scouts Cubjam. Obviously we still get some kids that go up to cubs having not camped but the options have been there and its not the end of the world if they don't want to. Do they get everything out of scouting if they don't camp? no but simply some kids/parents don't want to/can't. I know of at least one child that wants to but can't due to court order on where they must sleep.
Scouts in our group have travelled to Guernsey for a week long camp and my 13yr old is on 43 nights away and is off to Poland next year with the UK contingent for WSJ (now that is expensive).
We have camp coming up for beavers and we have 50% of the group beavers coming. Not all dates work for everyone so our every term camp gives everyone the option. If you don't consistently offer camps then a week is too long as a first experience. Do you have outside space at your meeting place that you could use for a local camp if your struggling to get attendees. We are very fortunate that we have the space and facilities to run a good programme in our own space so familiar to the kids/parents. Local for those parents that worry they will have to make a late night trip to pick up their child (nobody does)
Invite a cub or young scout to do a "this is what we did last summer camp" run a parents information session and review when information is given out. Scouts a few years ago had an issue with not getting the sign up. People have to plan their holidays and childcare far in advance. If you know the dates for next year's camp then add it on emails as a date to be aware of. Don't need to go into detail of where etc but a "camp has been planned for x" will really help uptake as those interested will try to avoid clashing with their own holiday plans. If they don't know until the summer term I can guarantee that many will have booked summer holidays. "dates for the diary" tagged on to emails via the template used on OSM so they don't even need to remember to add it now has made % attending much higher

No not a weekend. Yes 2 nights but make it mon-wed or wed-fri with drop-off and pickup times that are compatible with a working day. Weekend camp will have a whole load of different reasons why people can't come

If I died tommorow, I would have spent over 80% of my life with this group so it's certainly my lifetime.

It's been done one way for a long time, and I am struggling to understand why it has to change. Every week I show up and parents seem to less understand the work I put in and that I am a volunteer, every year less of the children give me a Christmas card, got none last year. I don't care about Christmas but I use to feel like the parents and kids thought of me as a human being.

I am watching around me, everyone treating this like it's a once a week for profit club but for me it's a philosophy. The kids show up with phones now, they don't want to camp, they don't wear their uniform and I don't think I am being childish in being unhappy at watching the scouting values I grew up with slip away.

Maybe change is inevitable and I have to move only to weekend camps and just accept that parents think I am paid to be there but I don't have to be happy about it.

I have been a GG leader for years. Parents and girls tend to treat us as paid staff now.
I have scaled back.

We have never done more than 4 nights away with 8-10 yo and I would prefer 2-3 nights.

Dd2 is going to an international camp this summer with her lot - 8 nights away but she is in secondary school. They enjoy it and don't need much supervision from leaders.

Week seems too long, especially for the younger ones. Year 6 (10-11) schools do a 4 night usually

I lead Brownie camps (ages 7-10), are they are a max of 2 nights. We don't allow parent helpers for overnights, only have qualified leaders. Luckily we have 8 leaders across Rainbows, Brownies and guides so we help out at each others camps. I think this helps with parent confidence.

We always do weekends with no issues. We have one next weekend - 22 out of 24 Rainbows are coming. 2 weeks ago we had a brownie weekend one - 20 out of 24 Brownies coming.

You want it to be 'compatible with your working day'! You do realise most leaders work, and have their own children, so their annual leave is precious.

Weekends my DH can have my girls, if they aren't coming.

Something is amiss; maybe a week is too long? Our cubs only do weekenders or 3 nights at a jamboree.
Our Scout summer camp is 6 days/5 nights for £250. There’s a waiting list for drop out places after all 20 places filled up.
Parents have to drop the Scouts off but it’s an hour from our meeting place - but might as well be another planet it’s so different!

As a recently ex guiding leader I'd say the same as many on here. Too long and too expensive.

I have never felt like that in real life, but maybe I'm lucky with our lovely parents and girls.

Although the post I responded to above did make me feel like that - 'weekdays at convenient times' - camp is not school holiday childcare!

Camp is an alternative school holiday care for families.
Of course it is.

We're not religious and my wife is culturally hindu but send our kids to a church camp in the summer, £120 for a week in the countryside and childcare sorted, I think it's a great opportunity to get them off the sofa.

My son is 12 and is doing a four night scout camp.

I can see that it's a lot of hardwork for the volunteers and depends a lot on the help/attitude of the parents. The parents have to facilitate and help, if not volunteer.

It's a huge amount of work but really beneficial for the kids.

Both of my DC begged not to go to the 5 day camps. They have been in the past and enjoyed the daytime activities but one of them in particular wanted some alone downtime I suspect. The kind of privacy you can only really get at home. I’d probably be the same TBH.
We really tried to convince them to go. Unfortunately I do feel the pull of modern day to day life also has an impact - my DC are scout age now and are increasingly rejecting organised fun in favour of screens and a casual kick about at the park or going out on bikes locally.

Some scout things seem such a world away from modern life - there are very few church or community based events now as I know it was a struggle to get the children to participate. I remember spending hours in churches with Brownies and Guides which I just couldn’t imagine people being on board with now. My DS has to be forced by me each week to wear all aspects of his uniform, I think there are other children who turn up without their uniform. When I went to brownies I loved getting badges but my DC weren’t bothered in cubs and certainly not scouts. I know the latter points aren’t what you were asking about but I thought I’d give my DC perspective on going to scouts. My DS likes the activities but perhaps doesn’t identify himself as a scout in the way that might have happened more in years gone by. I guess you could blame my parenting for not raising them in such a way that they would like the longer camps. As a family we are probably quite individualistic which probably reflects modern society as well as our preferences for spending longer periods of time in group settings.

£200 is your problem. As is 5 days for a cub camp. Cub camps are 2 nights. 5 nights is really a bit much for a lot of parents for 8 to 10 year olds. Rightly or wrongly. I don't think we'd consider doing a camp that long for that age group - scouts yes but not cubs.

It doesn't really surprise me tbh that you aren't getting a big uptake. Especially if it's during the summer holidays.

We only do a scout camp of that length every four years. The idea is that the kids do it once during their time at that level. It's announced the previous year to give plenty of prior notice.

Otherwise it's a standard weekend camp.

Bare in mind if you have more than one kid it's not just £60/£200 for a camp. It's double that - even if it's not the same year - if you are being fair to them all. And there's a bunch of other camps - many will also have school residential to go on too.

I think you are not in touch with parents to a degree here.

My son went for 7 days 12yrs ago on cub camp. He loved it. It did feel a bit long, but he loved it, and i’m glad he got to experience it. I think some parents are scared of letting their children have these experiences. Personally, I think it did my son a lot of good.

And no phones. I prefer it when the kids can’t take phones as they need a tech break. A few photos and daily updates is great.

You have some very unhealthy thoughts here.

You don't do it for the Christmas cards. The validation should be seeing the kids grow. That's it. A simple thank you rather than a card that may be perceived as a waste of environmental resources is sufficient.

'Scouting values you grew up with'. Woah steady now. DH has been involved with scouting a long time now. Scouting values haven't changed. The pressures on parents very much have. Both in terms of time and money. Scouting is competing with a whole host of other activities being available not just screens. It's slightly unfashionable. You have to offer more engaging activities to compete. That's not scouting values diminishing. Indeed if you dial up the scouting and make it more adventurous you tend to get more engagement. If kids turn up with phones, send them home! Or do something WITH the phones to engage the kids. Make it crystal clear it's not ok to not engage unless it's an active part of the activity and have a bit of discipline. If you end up losing the kids who aren't interested, the rest of the kids will have a better time and enjoy it more and be more engaged. Poor discipline with the group over phones will of course affect the rest of the group. That one kid who doesn't want to be there, will affect all the others. Be strict over it.

If you are offering a good program, you will get the enthusiasm you seek. Frankly I'd argue that if they are turning up with phones they are bored. We do not have an issue with phones at our any of our sections. The kids are there for the knives and fire and adventure.

You sound burnt out and jaded as a leader tbh. A lot of it sounds like a you problem and being out of step with parents/kids.

As others have said the problem is it’s too long. I have two DC who have been through cubs/scouts etc. Cubs was only ever 1-2 night camps. In scouts they progressed to a week. I would definitely not have sent them for a week at age 8, and I am very relaxed about this sort of thing. Just do a weekend in term time and you will get plenty of sign ups. I don’t think the price is at all unreasonable for a week’s camp but clearly a weekend will be much more affordable as well.

Hello - Brownie leader here.

I would stick with a weekend camp - or even a day “camp” to start with. A day camp can be particularly good for younger children - a camp fire, putting up tents, a nature activity. And… much less paperwork for you!

Lots of parents are nervous about their children going on trips away (we found this particularly post-Covid) but if you build up to a stay away, children can get excited and parents’ fears are allayed.

At our last residential trip, we did not have a WhatsApp group we updated. Some parents said that they preferred this, as they could just trust the child was happy and weren’t waiting for an update. They did, of course, have contact numbers so could have checked it if necessary.

Just a quick thought on this - yes, you don’t do this for Christmas cards. However, having some appreciation from parents is wonderful. As a Brownie leader I usually get only one or two Christmas cards, but it honestly makes me feel valued and appreciated as a volunteer. I wish more parents did this!

A note on photos - why not arrange for phones to go into a box during meetings? And have a strict rule about them?

And with uniform - worth reiterating this to parents. They’re an equaliser and worth it for many reasons. Perhaps have a second hand sale for cheaper prices?

My point is that whilst it acts as childcare, that's not it's primary purpose of camps run by volunteers. A commercial profit making camp, like PGL is different. In the same way as schools primary purpose is not go be childcare,but education. And therefore it's is built around activities and times which we feel benefit the children and which work for the volunteers, not for parental convenience.

I’m a Cub Scout leader and I’d say it’s the length. We do two weekend camps a year. 2 nights. Even then the younger ones sometimes start by doing one night or coming for the day time only. A week camping away from your family is a long time at 8 years old!

My son has been in beavers and is in cubs now. A week is too long at that age. He is doing 2 nights this weekend and it’s £30. He does this 4 or 5 times a year (mix of camping in tents and sleeping in the scout hut). My husband is volunteering to help at the camp but no way could we manage a whole weeks help. I think shorter camps is the way to go.

A week as in 4 nights (eg Mon-Fri) or 6 (eg Mon-Sun)? Either of those would be quite a long time for 8-10 year olds.

Depending on what actual days you’re going, you have to factor in that parents need to be available to drop off and collect their kids on whatever day you start and end. Could be an issue on a working day.

A lot of people have to book their annual leave quite far in advance to cover school holidays. I had to book mine back in March. So if people have already done that, they’re unlikely to send their kid to camp that week.

£200 is also super expensive for a camping trip.