To run a cub scout camp

[Scoutleader01809]

I am a man without children in his 20s but my mum said it's ok for me to ask questions here so here goes.

I have been a Cub (8-10 boys and girls) scout leader for about 10 years, running a week-long camp in the summer, less than an hour drive away from home, for those 10 years minus Covid. Past few years have become harder and harder to get signups.

I have great memories and experiences from camps I did at that age and older, every year the kids enjoy themselves on camp. It's hugely shaped me to become the adult I am today and most of my freinds are people I went to scouts with. I honestly believe scouting is a great organisation for teaching kids resilience and independence, and that's why I give up 5+ hours a week to scouting.

This year in particular has been a nightmare, almost none of the parents want to send their kids, camp is about £200 but it's an affluent area, we offer discounts to those who need so I doubt it's the cost. Some are genuinely on holiday but a lot of them genuinely insist it's to much for their child often telling me about how 20 years ago in brownies they didn't enjoy camping or that they would miss their child (am I wrong to think that they shouldn't worry about whether they will miss their child but only whether their child will have a good time?).

I hear about a lot of groups who have trouble running overnights and assumed their leaders were the probelm but now starting to question if that's just the parents of today.

I have a WhatsAppgroup with the parents and put photos in of the kids everyday enjoying themselves, I had to make it admins only a few years ago when the parents ask stupid questions like why does my child look tired, why are they wearing a jumper, I now get those questions in DM.

The kids sleep in canvas tents, sing campfire songs, do activities like archery and kayaking, play in the woods, I can't get how being on a screen or sitting bored in holiday camp is even remotely comparable.

I might cancel the camp, I might suffer through the 5 parents who have 'volunteered to help' to come along as a condition to their children attending then just stop running longer camps and only do 1 or 2 night camps. Ultimately, they're less prepared for longer scout and explorer camps, and it's a spiral until you get 18-year-olds unready to go to university.

I don't get it, I know I don't have kids and maybe I will feel different if/ when I do but I don't feel I am a bad person for suggesting their children would benefit from some experiences away from their parents.

YABU- You're the pied piper of hamelin
YANBU- Parents are being to precious and camp sounds great

Way too long for 8-10 year olds. We did 2 nights (Friday after school until Sunday afternoon) when I was a brownie, we did a couple of 7 days camps when we were at guides, but I'm not sure we would have coped with a week at 8. Not just from a homesick and can't cope away from home angle, but camp was intense, full on, very busy, with lots of activities, and I don't think I would have had the stamina at 8 years old to sustain that for a week!

My siblings cried on every sleep over at that age.

Moved abroad on a gap year and has rarely been back!

I don't think being reticent to do a full week away at 8 means anything for the uni years!!

Here brownies camp for 1 night and guides for 3. I think it is too long.

Yeah, I think I remember my childhood one way and have some rose tinted glasses on. We run a one night sleepover and 2 night camp as well which work out ok, we do some district events. Maybe the answer is to just move to that.

My husband is a scout leader and like you, is finding it hard to get enough signed up to the annual week camp for similar reasons / excuses. Likewise, as a brownie & guide leader I've found a weekend is all I can get them to sign up to and even then it's not easy. Kids seem soft these days compared to 10 years ago. A weekend doesn't feel long enough either, as soon as they're in the swing of it, they're packing to go home.

For comparison I offered Wings to my guides (cost £450, plus parents provide travel), week long event and the Guides were all full of excuses about how it wasn't for them. I'm still going - it's going to be a blast!

Keep going. The kids that do engage, even with just the weekly meetings, will get a lot of of it.

Cub camp here is about £100 for two nights. My son goes to done but not others. He finds the free time difficult and prefers it structured.

I know our cohort has a lot of SAHPs and so it's not just that but I hadn't considered the finer details of holiday clubs so you might be right as well.

Well clearly he wouldn't be the only trained person on camp. Scouting has strict procedures and he would have to submit a nights away notification detailing the membership number of every leader attending, who is first aider etc and the approving lead volunteer would need to verify that everybody had completed basic training including safety and safeguarding and that there were enough first aiders with the appropriate level qualification for the location and activities and that if undertaking any adventurous activities that they had the right permits.

Plus a risk assessment needs to be completed, submitted and approved.

It does feel like even 10 years ago when I started being a leader, kids and parents are very different. Covid seems to have changed everyone. The kids now have phones and expect to be able to bring them, the parents expect me to message them twice a day. I got off a bus last year and a parent said to me as soon as I saw them 'that was to long'

I run a weekend camp, and by the time you put the tents up, it's almost time to pack them down, maybe they get 2 activities in. Possibly it's just what everyone wants though.

They have no idea how lucky they are. This is the stuff idyllic childhood memories are made of.

To answer your question: you are not being unreasonable, though I’d probably reduce the length of the trip to 3 or 4 nights to see if that improves uptake.

Rose tinted glasses for sure. I have very fond memories of my childhood camps in a farmer's field away from anything. Collecting water from the farm and being skirt in to "duties" so managing the wood collection, cooking, the emptying of the elsan loos in to the toilet pit......

But just generally having a blast! We would get taken swimming mid week to wash off summer of the mud and pong!

Last year we went to a very rural site with no mobile signal. I loved it. My cubs loved it. The scouts were dropping like flies. If they didn't pull out last minute they were begging us to call parents to have them picked up after the first night. I think they couldn't survive without their phones.

We do a lot of camps through scouts, and previously cubs. The max duration has been 2 nights away. Even the school residential is only 3 nights. A week is just too long unfortunately, maybe for older scouts it could be ok.

I am a GG leader and have helped run Brownie camps so similar age. I stick to two nights, any more and you have either the girls who are reluctant or the parents (plus it’s personally too much time for me and to ask my volunteers to take out of their lives). I think if you stick to two nights and are able to reduce the price, you will find uptake much higher. Especially if you are able to accommodate single-night stays for anyone anxious - these can be a good investment as it gives the kids and parents confidence to come longer next time.

I would focus on shorter camps but more frequently as those are much more accessible. You will get some parents and kids gung-ho for a longer experience, but it rules out a lot of people from the get-go.

I think we have to remember too that these are children who have gone through Covid - it’s just a different scene post-2020, I think. A lot of kids now have never even stayed with a relative, so a week-long camp is a big ask. I’d work at making them accessible for as many as possible.

DD9 has brownie camp next weekend. It’s 2 nights- after school Friday to Sunday afternoon, £80, no actual camping required as they have dorms in a building on the site which is one of those typical outdoorsy scouting centres. It gets a great turn out. In winter they also do 1 night sleep over in the church hall.

Anything during the school holidays always runs a risk of clashing with family holidays. £200 is a lot of money for some families and stops it being as inclusive. 5 nights is also a long time away from home for an 8YO and a long time to spend roughing it camping. DD had 2 nights camping on her school residential and that was more than enough for her, we’d have no issue with her being away for 5 nights per se, she’s doing a 6 night school ski trip next year, but honestly she wouldn’t want to camp for that long.

I think it’s too long for the age group, as others have said.

Two nights max for cubs, I’d say.

At our local Scouting group, they don’t do week long camps until Scouts, and that’s once a year, and tbh a lot of the Scouts just do the weekend ones still.

Also, £200 isn’t a lot for what they’re getting, no, but it is a lot for some families to find.

I think it’s that rather than it being a bad idea to camp as such.

My DS adores Scout camps if that helps - he is 12 though.

And just to say thank you for volunteering your time, it’s so important to give children these opportunities and allow them to gain independence and take risks in a managed way like camp or PGL. These events are a heck of a lot of work to organise but the kids get so much out of them. I love seeing an anxious girl absolutely flourish over a weekend at PGL or similar.

My cub does 2 night camps although she would like to go longer I think

I’d say it’s very unusual for children aged 8-10 to go away for a week; that wasn’t even the norm when I was that age. What is the build up? I’d be cool with between ages 8-10, beginning with one night and building up to 3 max by the time they are 10. For me a week would be suitable from more like 12. It’s a bit exaggerated to say kids won’t be ready for university if they haven’t been away from parents for a week by 10.

I do agree in some respects, that parents these days are particularly anxious and as such they restrict their kids from opportunities for independence that they need. I disagree strongly with tracking kids for example and view that as being 90% about parents soothing their own anxiety. But resilience comes from feeling secure and building independence gradually.

Your poll is pretty inflammatory and baity. Parents are not precious because they don’t want to send their children overnight with strangers.

Beaver and Scout leader here. I think 2 nights is enough for Cubs. £200 for a 5 night camp is pretty good value BUT it's just a bit long for 8-10 year olds. I've taken Scouts on week-long camps and that's hard enough. Drop it back to 2 nights and take the pressure off.

Maybe it's inflammatory and baity, I have put a lot of work in for a decade into scouting and am grumpy and can't say how I feel to the actual parents. I see these children every week, some of our leaders have children in schools with their children, I don't think I am a stranger to the children or the parents.

YABU- You're the pied piper of hamelin
YANBU- Parents are being to precious and camp sounds great

I haven't voted as your poll question is ridiculous.

I've been involved in different roles for over 40 years, and I've had 3 dc go through all sections, all totalling nigh on 200 nights each by the time they hit 18, so I am all for camps and all sorts of experiences that the children get on camps, but I don't know of any groups that take cubs away for a week (or 5 days as you later said). I suspect that is your issue. Cubs are of an age where 2 nights is usually enough. Possibly 3 for the older / more experienced / more confident ones. I've not come across a Group that does a longer camp until the dc are of Scout age. Even then some of the younger ones struggle.

I do agree things have changed a lot since COVID, but I do think cub camps are better over a weekend, and leaving them wanting more, and that has always been the case since before you were born.

I used to be a leader on cub camps about 15 years ago. The longest we did was 3 nights and honestly it was too long. The kids didn't sleep well, therefore we didn't sleep well. I got about 8 hours sleep over 3 nights between all the kids who were up and down. We used to mainly do 2 night camps which were the sweet spot I think. And then scouts would run 2-3 nights the rest of the year and a week in the summer. And then explorers could run longer ones. I don't think we ever saw an issue where they were unprepared for the next stage, and my dad ran the scout troup so I am pretty sure I would have known about it.

It's wonderful you run camps but I would go for 2-3 nights I think.

Your scout group must be subsidising that, I have paid £500 for my son to go to poacher!

The poll question was a little facetious because I am grumpy.

I did a week-long camp when I was a Cub, I cut it to 5 days as an adult leader 10 years later when I became section lead, I am taking under advisement that most people agree 5 days is too long.

There is a lot of other older leaders who think 5 days was a mistake and I dread telling them we're dropping to a weekend but I can see that may be necessary.