What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

You’re complaining because she responded sarcastically after you directly insulted her. It’s one thing to not believe you need to earn respect; it’s another to work so hard as you do to lose it.

Here’s an idea: take a break from teaching. That way you won’t have to dread phone calls from perfectly reasonable parents. Then grow up. Then come back when you’re ready to function in a respectful workplace.

ByCyanMoose

To put it somewhat differently, you need to not earn their active disrespect by constantly harassing them over trivial details of their appearance that have little to do with the mission of educating students, or meting out draconian penalties for every minor error.

So once again the onus is on the teachers to tread that fine line.
But look at your language here
Harrasing
Trivial
Draconian penalties
mnor error
You are setting up teachers to fail. and before you say that you are not you are at least setting them an impossible task.

And to put it how it should be,
"Why is it the teacher's responsibilty to ensure that your child is in a place where they are ready to learn?"

Treading that “fine line” is in fact the job of every person in society who has authority over others: police officers, managers, teachers. The great majority succeed at it. So yes, the onus is on them. It’s not easy, but that is why we call these people professionals.

It is of course possible to do everything right and still have disrespectful pupils, at which point it becomes more an issue of whether school admin follows through with consequences. But that too is true of any demanding profession. We can do our own jobs well and still have incompetent managers, bullying coworkers, unreasonable customers etc who screw it all up.

I don’t teach.

And the thread ends with a collective sigh of relief!😅

All the examples I read about are at academy schools, I think this is not a coincidence.

From all that I have heard from the much more strict schools, from teachers who have taught in them, including ones who have then moved to my school, behaviour is much better at them. They say things like 'you can just get on and teach'.

My school doesn't do these things and funnily enough, behaviour is generally not great. Kids piss around because they can. And I spend ages doling out and taking in pens that I've spent money on when I could be helping kids. I can assure you that not policing sock colour doesn't result in kids treating you with respect.

So one response to 'what do extremely strict schools achieve' would certainly be 'better behaviour'.

The vast majority of secondary schools are academies.

That's a weird and unevidenced interpretation of what I said.

Bad behaviour wasn't endemic. It happened, but rarely. It was neither persistent, nor extreme. The class as a whole was happy and successful. And no, for the last time, the bad behaviour was not mine. Hope that clarifies.

But I doubt it will be enough somehow, since you seem insistent on picking holes in every other experience that is different from your own.

As you like

Yet if you disrespect a police officer you get repremanded or arrested.
You do tha same with a manager and you get repremanded or fired
You do the same to a teacher and the attempt at a repremand is draconian and you get to go back in to the class and do the same the next day/lesson.

Many pupils and parents are very happy to let you know that they have rights but are very slow to take any responsibilty for their actions. And strangely enough those same parents and pupils care very little for the rights of others.

What’s really funny is that some kids enjoy seeing other kids being told off, they’ll report any infringement but when it’s them doing the exact same thing and getting told off it’s suddenly the worst thing ever and you’re soooo unfair! Obviously rules only apply to other people. 🙄

This thread is like a hamster wheel.
Non-teachers suggest poor behaviour is largely due to petty rules and poor practice of individual teachers.
Others say this is not the case and highlight other issues that impact on behaviour (under-resourcing for SEND and other challenges, poor parental attitudes, high levels of supply & cover etc. etc.).
These are ignored and people continue to imply teachers on this thread aren’t doing enough/are being disrespectful/are not engaging in effective practice. This is seen as the problem - not wider systemic issues.
The teachers are understandably upset by this criticism particularly as people know nothing about their practice.

I think particular lowlights were suggesting people might be better off training dogs or shouldn’t be teaching.
Various straw men are also thrown around e. g. teachers see misbehaving students as ‘bad people’
There is also the ‘everything was better in the good old days argument’. This wasn’t a universal experience. I was there in the old days - believe me it wasn’t great for everyone.

There is a recruitment crisis in secondary teaching. It really isn’t hard to see why.
My DD has largely engaged and supportive teachers. She does not attend a MN approved type school - just a typical comprehensive. She appreciates it when teachers challenge disruptive behaviour & they do. Nobody is on a ‘power trip’ or marching people to detention because they forgot a pen. I see hardworking teachers continuing to give good teaching despite under resourcing and abuse from a minority of students and parents.

There are zero tolerance and more punitive school environments, but this is not a universal experience. I’m glad DD’s school doesn’t fuss about shoes, hair dye etc., but I can assure you this has not led to universal good behaviour. Disruptive behaviour is not largely the result of the enforcement of uniform rules etc. The causes are multifaceted.

Another example. When DD was in primary school at pick up we waited by the gates. When I picked her up she said she hoped Mr x was okay. Why I asked? Oh because Bob’s mum is shouting and swearing at him in the playground. And yes as we walked round through the fence I could see the parent openly berating Mr x in full view of the kids leaving. A minority of parents do not model politeness and respect and this impacts their children.
Disrespectful behaviour has multiple causes - it isn’t just about petty rules.

👏👏

We’ve had children (yes, several), come in the next day and apologise for their parents’ behaviour.

Don't forget the sly manipulative ones, the wind up merchants or those that spot a "weakness" and expliot it to get a reaction.

Or those children that report teachers for issuing sanctions against them or because the teacher might issue a sanction against them.

Do you have a link please?
I did google but can’t seem to find anything about outcomes in schools that tried his approach.

I’m telling my muuuuum!

No darling, I will be telling your mum.

Is it government pressure?
Yes
Ofsted?
Yes
League tables?
Yes
Funding linked to attendance?
Yes
Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?
Hmmmm...not sure

Btw, where's the complaint? I made a statement. Not a complaint. But then, even though I have clearly explained that I am not a teacher, you seem to think I am one.

"Do not argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

Illustrated here I think.

I do admire your experience.

https://nation.cymru/news/how-welsh-school-cut-exclusions-from-150-to-13-after-behaviour-overhaul/

Here's a real life example of changes leading to massive improvement in pupil behaviour

They’re trying this in Scotland though and it’s having a tremendously detrimental affect so it doesn’t work everywhere. In fact this is the only case I have seen of it working.

In Scotland permanent exclusions have been zero each year for some time. There are no meaningful consequences for poor behaviour and constant disruption. So students behave violently and constantly disrupt lessons. Violence is soaring and academic achievement is plummeting. It’s appalling that the Scottish government are determined to ignore this serious issue.

The article doesn't mention that the school was put into special measures in April 2025. https://www.southwalesguardian.co.uk/news/25133635.estyn-ysgol-maesydderwen-placed-special-measures/

That's an interesting report. Yes, it definitely seems that the quality of teaching is not where it should be, but it does say that the behaviour policy is starting to show a positive impact, and it sounds as though more children are actually in school. It'd be interesting to see the next inspection report.