What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

tldr.

You have posted to me in your posts

There again with the smug attitude.

If you want unconditionally perfect behaviour and a work environment where whatever you say goes, you may be better suited to dog sitting than teaching.

Grow up.

And you wonder why people aren’t welcoming your “feedback”.

If a pupil told me I couldn't have an opinion on something because I hadn't had direct experience, yes, I would absolutely ask them if they realised how ridiculous they sounded.

And I would talk to them about how everyone is entitled to an opinion, including them, as long as they could back it up with evidence and weren't rude in expressing it.

I would also talk to them about how not everyone will agree with their opinion and that was absolutely fine, that they should accept that not everyone will agree with them but that they should try to understand why others feel the way they do even if they don't agree.

I would talk about how important it is to be open minded and about how collaboration with people with different opinions can lead to better things.

What would be the problem with that?

Dog sitting might be problematic as you do get dogs who push the boat a bit?

Others on this thread have said my opinions are worthless because I haven't taught in a classroom.

Well yes. Someone who has never taught in a classroom has zero business telling people how to teach.

BloominNora

What I find amusing is that you claim to be giving feedback. This isn't a lesson observation.
You have not observed anyone here teaching,
You have never taught
You are not qualified to give feedback on teaching practice.

By all means have an opinion, even an informed opinion after all this is a discsussion forum.

Data relating to education is always numbers and ignores the words and context behind the data.

Absolutely - hence the reason for conversations with teachers about why the data shows what it does. The analysis I have done isn't just x % this and x % that - it is also qualitative.

Speaking to teachers and education leaders about why the data says what it does.

Going to the head of the school that has seen a rapid improvement in attendance and reduction in exclusion and finding out what they have done differently to achieve it and sharing that learning with others through teacher conferences.

Going to the head of the school that has seen a rapid improvement in attendance and reduction in exclusion and finding out what they have done differently to achieve it and sharing that learning with others through teacher conferences.

Interesting that you haven't linked this with an increase in grades/academic outcomes.

Where have I claimed to give feedback to any individual on their teaching practices outside of where they have given specific examples (like the original pen conversation)?

I have expressed my view about people's behaviour on this thread which I have observed and said that if it is reflective of their teaching practices then that would be very sad.

I have also spoken about the sort of teaching practices that I have experienced in one way or another that in my opinion are unhelpful, but I haven't directed that to anyone in particular on this thread.

If posters see themselves in those descriptions then that is for them to reflect on.

Non-school uniform days are nothing like not having a uniform at all. Non-uniform days only happen occasionally and there's a lot of pressure on children to wear the right clothes but when its every single day that pressure isn't there. I have two children (including a teenager who is at peak worrying about fashion age) who go to schools without uniforms, every single person I know in my country went to school without uniforms and none of them would rather have uniforms, none of them have complained about worries about what to wear.

I don't think I have ever encountered someone as boring as you tbh. And there is no way on this planet that you could ever be a teacher.

The problem with that is this. While you are indulging yourself talking down to a teenager, there are another 29 who need you to TEACH. So you've taken up a whole period telling them something that you think they don't know, but is completely irrelevant to the SUBJECT you are teaching.

If I was a parent of a child in your class, I would, for the first time in my entire life, complain to the school that they have a teacher who can't just say " right Katie, do that again and you're getting sent to the base". Or " we can talk about this later Katie if you want to. I'm free after school".

There are 30 pupils. Not one. Tbh, if I was the imaginery Katie and you were my teacher, I would just say "no thanks miss", and then laugh at you with all my pals while going to my next class with a teacher who inspires me.

BloominNora

Why would anybody replying to you see themselves in your forced descriptors?

Most of us are pointing out that you are wrong, and have no classroom teaching experience.

It usually takes a bit longer for the grades and outcome improvements to come through.

The analysis tended to show that improvements in attendance and reductions in suspensions and expulsions would take about three years to fully reflect in grades and outcomes - for the first two years the kids taking the exams are already too far behind.

There are some improvements but it is not immediate or wide reaching.

Where schools did improve attendance but failed to improve outcomes, it was usually put down to increasing SEND need but there were other schools with the same level of SEND but more inclusive practices that did improve results.

I genuinely believe that treating children like individuals, giving them agency and the opportunity to be themselves, leads to better behaviour and better outcomes.

I'm currently discussing with a couple of schools the idea about pulling together a study which links attendance, behaviour and test data with feedback from teachers and pupils on classroom management.

My working hypothesis is that the teachers who have a more relaxed attitude and whose pupils respect them more rather than fear them will have better outcomes.

But it is an hypothesis - maybe it will show the opposite?

Either way, it will be useful for the schools in developing and improving behaviour policies.

🙄

My working hypothesis is that the teachers who have a more relaxed attitude and whose pupils respect them more rather than fear them will have better outcomes.

Who quantifies more relaxed attitude?

I would say that the majority of schools don't run on fear, despite what you read. Even Michela runs on respect.

Schools run on fear shouldn't be tolerated, but my experience is that those schools don't actually exist.

Why are people getting defensive if what I am saying doesn't apply to them?

You think I am wrong - fair enough if you don't think it is important to treat pupils as individuals with respect and that doing so won't improve behaviour. If your particular cohort of pupils responds best to ultra strictness then you do you.

But the opinion you claim is wrong has been formed, in large part from conversations with teachers who do think that respect and agency for pupils is important in improving behaviour.

You are dismissing my opinion because I am not a teacher but you are also dismissing the practices of the teachers that I have worked with or have experience of which has led me to form my views.

Why do you think you are right and they are wrong?

I'm planning on asking a university to help with the development of the questionnaires and interviews and also doing a lot more detailed work with the school about what they would find useful.

However my initial thoughts are:

From the pupils perspective I want to focus on why they like or dislike particular teachers, which lessons they experience the most disruptive behaviour, which lessons they feel like they learn more, what the teachers do differently etc.

From the teachers perspective - what sort of rules do they enforce in their classrooms (e.g. the blazers), do they enforce a seating plan, how do they manage behaviour, what do they think the reasons for disruption are etc.

I would focus on either four or six cohorts - from the data perspective the three teachers that have the best behaviour stats, the three that have the worst, and then the same for results - probably with a focus on English and Maths.

Then from the qualitative perspective the three teachers with the best and worst feedback (from pupils and SLT observations).

Then put it all together and see if it presents any conclusions.

Interesting methodology and a very small sample size.

Currently all research points towards children being happy in school when they experience success. The method of them achieving that success seems immaterial so your research has the potential to be interesting.

I would expect you to repeat it over multiple schools in different demographic areas to reach any meaningful conclusions.

Sadly a lot of edureseach is not robust when it comes to methodology and replication.

I wouldn't have the conversation during class. I would have it after lesson, during break, lunch or after school.

You are again assuming that I don't think sanctions should be applied when I have explicitly said I do think sanctions are relevant if they are used correctly.

But then you've also said you don't actually read my posts so I'm not surprised you don't know that.

I may not have taught in a classroom but I have worked directly with 100's of children in other ways via work, hobbies and volunteering.

You can not agree with me - but given the personal attacks a rest - because that is boring!

I’ll bite. How are you going to ensure they turn up at break or lunch or after school?

Yes - ideally I want to do it with a couple of local schools, maybe a trust, to get the methodology right (and to scratch the personal interest itch).

If it proves useful to the schools and I get good feedback from a few key people in my network who I trust to be honest with feedback (good or bad), I have a couple of contacts in the DfE and a few consultancies that work closely with the sector that I will approach to discuss rolling it out into a wider piece of research.

If super strict and more relaxed schools both demonstrate success and improved outcomes then is it just down to personal school ethos which one they employ?

I suspect it is about consistency - my thinking is that if a school is fully zero tolerance or fully inclusive they succeed - it is where you get inconsistency that results are mixed.

How do any teachers who impose sanctions do that - is that a serious question?

A lot of them are at whole school level. So during p5 you might get senior management coming around gathering offenders. Then there’s an additional sanction if they don’t show up.

Very difficult for one teacher to manage. One full time member of staff in a secondary school teaches over a hundred different students a week (more for a lot of subjects.)

Would you like me to break down exactly why this study would be rubbish?

But you are also making the assumption that I/we don't treat pupils as individuals or use a range of techniques with them.

You seem to believe that I/we want the pupils to "fear" us This is your bias showing as we don't agree with your theories pf teaching.

I can also tell you from experience that although pupils get treated as idividuals Pupils want to see everyone treated equally, and that is where being a professional and maintaining a professional distance from the pupils comes in and making sure that the school rulse are follwed (which is not helped by SLT pissing around and not following their own rules).

And just because you have spoken to teachders doesn't make that the correct practice. I can tell you that those that go to your seminars, and meetings etc. go to them because they believe that they are correct and are happy to be in a sound chamber that re-affirms their views.

Any teacher worth their salt knows that no single education theory stands on its own merit unless backed by rules and stratigies that are followed by all staff.