What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

Lunch hour <hollow laugh> our lunch 45 minutes takes place between ps 4 and 5. P5 is getting longer by the day. I’ve timed our whistle; 36 minutes. Sigh.

Lovely 🥰

Thank you

Do you want your child to have teachers, or don't you?

Can get in the bin? That’s the way you speak to people in real life? You can’t think as a professional that’s ok? I’m amazed at your manners - maybe they are saved up for MN.

Lovely ☺️

Are you ok? This is MN, not my job. Might be a good way of you to get to hear what people in real life actually think instead of the polite professionalism they are required to present.

Nope I haven't confused you with anybody else. I was definately replying to your post about how bad behaviour didn't become problematic for you and your friends.
And just because you got good grades doesn't mean that the behaviour wasn't disruptive to others in the class, and because you think that it wasn't problematic the poor bahaviour was more than likely yours.
Or do you think that the "smart" kids don't mess about?

No I hear you!

Thanks. You might want to seek help for your bigotry.

I appreciate you taking time to share your views with me! Lovely! ☺️

You sound very inspirational

Ok, so you won't be suggesting that teachers can give up their unpaid time to do stuff and you'll be challenging people who do? Great.

BloominNora

I have already replied to many of your poointssaying how they are wrong
but I will also explain this one

I wouldn't have the conversation during class. I would have it after lesson, during break, lunch or after school.

After lesson, and make the pupil late for the next one cauusing disruption.
during break. unless its an oficial detention best of luck with that, they might turn up in the last few minutes.
Lunch, At my last school this was 30minutes. less cleaning up time and setting up time so 20 if you didn't have any kids that wanted to stay and chat, It would also trigger a response from the parents about their child missing their lunch break.And just FYI teachers are not paid for lunch.

After school, again best of luck with that, unless its the last period of the day and again calls from parents about missing the bus, not being able to pick up a sibling, its gets dark. etc. etc.

You do realise that noble is also a human being with her own thoughts, feelings, opinion and A LIFE and not permanently on duty as much as some parents would like teachers to be.

One thing I don’t think many non teachers understand too well is how frantic the pace of the day is and also the sheer size of some secondary schools.

Classes obviously can’t just be left while you track down students and let’s say I want to arrange to have a conversation with three year 9s. I can easily use twenty minutes of my PPA just walking to different classrooms and telling them to come and see me at break or lunch (assuming I’m not on duty and assuming they come.)

It really is something you have to experience and I think it’s possible even student teachers and to a slightly lesser extent ECTs don’t get because they have much lighter timetables. One of our ECTs is constantly on the phone to parents; great, but fitting that in on a full teaching timetable just isn’t always possible or practical.

It's the last resort of someone who can't actually formulate an argument. "I hope you don't teach my children' etc etc. MN never changes.

Same for my dd. Autistic, high achieving predicted 9s no behavioural issues never recieved 1 C1 but dropped out after a couple of years of part time and dropping attendance. The anxiety it caused crippled her, we were on fortnightly home visits from psychiatrist at CAMHS because we all feared she she would kill herself.
I fought had her placed in out of County specialist school where she was really happy and now she has EOTAS. By the time she finishes A levels it will have cost the LA about half a million which is outrageous for a high achieving well behaved student.
It was never the other students that bothered her, she had huge empathy for those that had repeated sanctions when they needed support but the teaching staff's demand for total deference terrified her.
Of course overhauling the SEND system means that options my dd has had will be denied and I expect that school will be increasingly impossible to access by many with SEND.

I am also a human being - we all are, our kids are, respect to you all - unless you prove otherwise - then I’d be asking why from kids. But I understand many thing I’m unreasonable - that’s life!

But why don't you want to give up your unpaid time to be further abused?

Won't someone think of the children.

I never expected anyone to give up their unpaid time for my kids - it’s not who I am - I deal with their challenges - just as well as the school was bloody useless but I have the means - I see myself as lucky, I don’t have badly behaved kids but I don’t see the kids who struggle at secondary or their parents as bad people - that’s maybe that’s my bad!

No one ever seems to link poor student behaviour with the constant stream of supply teachers they have and the constant stream of supply teachers they have with endlessly adding to the workload of permanent teachers until they quit and can't be replaced.