What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

I am responding to that posters specific attitude- instead of engaging with the question and talking about what the children say, she resorted to personal insults and defensiveness and not for the first time.

There are some truly amazing teachers out there with a range of classroom management techniques but there are also a lot of awful teachers.

The biggest difference in my experience - professionally AND personally is the ones who are good respect the children by treating them as individuals and understanding where their behaviour comes from.

For some reason, the idea that teachers should demonstrate the importance of respect by engaging in respectful behaviour towards their seems to be an anathema to some on this thread.

@noblegiraffe and the other teachers in this thread have never given any indication thst they dont communicate respectfully with young people.
For some reason, you are making negative assumptions about them. If someone suggested you were disrespectful or unempathetic in your professional role, im sure you would be upset. Particularly if they had no direct experience of your practice.

In what way am I over ruling anyone by recounting personal experiences of teachers that are respected by the kids they are teaching and achieve good results?

You don't even have personal experience of these teachers, you're going by what your kid has said!

@BloominNora and you certainly dont have any direct experience of the teaching practice of the professionals on this thread. However, you seem very happy to critique them.

"Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs" springs to mind.

Exactly. We have had shouting teachers held up as good examples. I never shout ever. We have had another poster saying a good teacher made a kid stand up and recite an apology!!!! Another teacher is described as good because they allow messing about in a lesson. The idea of a seating plan was deemed inappropriate by one poster. They obviously don’t have a clue that in a class I’m going to have a kid with HI who needs to be front and centre. A kid with mobility issues who needs to be near the door. Two separate ASC kids who need a table to themselves. Another kid who has a one to one TA. Another kid with allergies who can’t be near a window. A kid with ADHD who needs to be at the back of the room so they can have movement breaks without distracting others. These are all real examples I have this year. There is no way I can’t have seating plans but then perhaps that is only obvious to an experienced classroom practitioner. The only example of teachers being disrespectful though was me being criticised for ‘humiliating’ a kid about a pen.

But you said that they weren't strict that the classes prefered them because they were laid back (or whatever). That this type of teacher gets the best out of the pupils.
You are also adding in extra descriptors to make your point.

And lets be honest here the reason why the pupils includking your DD's class behave is because the teachers are in fact strict.

So you can only have an opinion on something you have done directly?

You have called me arrogant but don't seem to understand what the word means.

Unlike some on this thread, who worringly appear to be teachers I have not refused to accept feedback, I have not shifted any blame, I have not dismissed or disregarded any one else's opinion.

Do you know how ridiculous you sound?

Assuming you are a teacher, I hope you never express opinions on the NHS, safeguarding, politics, the state of the roads, the quality of food in pubs and restaurants or service in shops...or is it only teaching that direct experience is a pre-requisite of an opinion?

You can have an opinion. But you should listen to the experts (the actual teachers) when they say your opinion is wrong.

That isn't what I said at all.

I said they were more relaxed and treated the kids and individuals and with respect and didn't enforce petty rules for the sake of it. No where did I say they were not strict when they needed to be.

That seems to be the crux of the issue - some people can't diffentiate the between strictness and treating people as individuals and with respect - which is very sad for both them and the kids that they teach.

Unlike some on this thread, who worringly appear to be teachers I have not refused to accept feedback, I have not shifted any blame, I have not dismissed or disregarded any one else's opinion.

Why exactly should I 'accept feedback' from you, when you don't appear to have any particular knowledge or experience in the area you're trying to feed back on?

I’ll moan about the food in the restaurant to DH if it’s not cooked right. What I won’t do is go to the chef and explain what he did wrong. I moan about the pot holes but won’t tell the highway maintenance workers how to repair it. I might complain that the NHS waiting lists are too long or wards are too crowded. But I won’t tell the doctor or nurse how to treat me. Everyone is perfectly entitled to voice their dissatisfaction with the education system. In fact I hope they do and then we will get meaningful change. But telling strangers they are doing their job wrong just isn’t fair. The other teachers on this thread who I don’t know might be the most inspiring leaders ever or they could be rubbish. I don’t know. I’m not going to tell them what I think of their teaching without observing their lesson which obviously isn’t going to happen.

Could you be any more condescending? Im
nor a teacher. Just goes to show that your reading comprehension is woeful.

I can seriously imagine you calling a school and no one being available to “talk”
to you. Because they’re all sick and tired with you taking them away from actually teaching to tell them they are doing it wrong because your daughter told you something.

Teachers are not the only experts on education and you don't have to be an expert to have an opinion.

Asking questions of, discussing these issue with and listening to teachers who have told me about how they have implemented improvements in their classrooms and the difference it has made has resulted in me changing some of my opinions over the years.

I have seen the evidence of that directly through their results, pupil outcomes and parental and inspection feedback.

Teachers are not one homogeneous group - some will agree with the views of people on this thread who think the only way to manage a classroom is to be ultra strict and that children do not need to be treated individually and with respect.

Others agree with a more restorative and collaborative approach to classroom management and behavior policy.

Others still will have opinions that sit anywhere on the spectrum between the two.

The difference between the teachers who I have had conversations with in real life and disagreed with, but who have convinced me to concede some of their points, is that, despite our differences of opinion, we have still respected eachothers views and experiences.

Unlike people in this thread, those teachers did not dismiss the opinions of others out of hand, nor did they resort to insults and debasing language.

I am prepared to discuss and listen to others opinions that don't align with my own because I welcome debate and think it makes a difference, and enjoy learning and developing.

Forgive me if I take the opinions of people I've met in real life more seriously than those on an anonymous forum who seem unable to cope with anyone disagreeing with them, without resorting to insults.

Then you have a very over active imagination to go with your intolerance of others opinions

I don’t know your opinion because your posts are very long and all about how you know how to teach without actually doing it. So I read your first two sentences then lose the will to live.

Forgive me if I take the opinions of people I've met in real life more seriously than those on an anonymous forum

And yet you expect to be taken seriously when you’re on anonymous forum even though you’ve said things which are objectively rubbish?

And they have critiqued my professional and personal experience in turn.

I've disagreed with people, but not once have I belittled their views or told them they are not allowed to have a view because they don't have the right sort of experience.

Others agree with a more restorative and collaborative approach to classroom management and behavior policy.

Google Paul Dix and schools that tried his approach.

Bad behaviour happened. It never became problematic. It's really not bizarre or difficult to understand at all. I'm part of a Facebook group for the now-adults who attended that school. The same teachers are named as favourites time and time again. Always very similar approaches. They became head of English, head of Science and head of Maths respectively.

Others agree with a more restorative and collaborative approach to classroom management and behavior policy.

The only teachers that I know that liked this approach was SLT who used it to berate the teachers and do as little as behaviour management with teh kids as they could be their 'mate'.

You may also want to talk to those that have been bullied and the parents of those that had been bullied as to how they feel about the restorative and collaborative approach to behaviour management.

Its just another stick to beat teachers with.

Never became problematic for who?
You and your mates that caused the issues or those that had to put up with it?

Just rereading this. Would you speak to a pupil in the way you spoke to me? I think you would.

<sigh>

You can do what you like. I wasn't stating what you should do.

I was responding to the poster that called me arrogant to point out that I had not done the things that are the definition of arrogance while others on this thread have. I didn't name any individual posters.

If you feel called out by what I said, that is entirely for you to reflect on.

I have not said others opinions are worthless, I have not dismissed anyone's opinions because I disagree, I have actively said I think discussion, debate and differing opinions are healthy.

Others on this thread have said my opinions are worthless because I haven't taught in a classroom.

Over 20 years in the sector, countless professional and personal conversation and learning from tens, if not hundreds of classroom experienced teachers with a wide range of opinions, children and families, experience of being a school governor, analysis of every facet of education data available, academic study around the psychology of child behaviour and my own personal family experience of schools all counts for nothing, according to some here.

That kind of dismissal is arrogant!