School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

That's literally masking. It's exactly what is so damaging in the long-term - and you're a real champion of this strategy because it makes you less uncomfortable in the short term.

You're failing her.

What if one of the pupils in class is ND and finds her attending late difficult?

What if there isn't? We can all conjure up absurd what ifs but they're not a reason to blanket dismiss all accommodations out of hand with zero clue.

I dont think anyone is saying that all careers should be accessible to all people with all disabilities. For example.you have to have excellent vision to do careers involving driving and no one would expect a logistics company to have a reasonable adjustment for partially sighted drivers.

We are saying, and so are this government by the way, that mainstream school should be accessible to all but those with the most complex needs. Because school and education are not a choice they are a fundamental human right. At the moment we are failing a huge proportion of young people.both with ND and other disabilities as well as other kinds of SEND such as mental health conditions and it seems many in society just think "tough luck"

No one is telling a ND to do that.

This is like a child sitting at the bottom of a ramp in a wheelchair saying I am in a chair I need someone to take me into school as I cannot try and use my own arms to push my chair up the ramp.....

That is what the issue is.....

By all means if you think a child in a wheelchair should never be taught how to self propel their chair and always rely on others to push them then that is on you.

Well unfortunately that attitude is costing the country thousands with families having to get EHCPs for their kids to get an education and councils are left having to fund kids in private schools because of a lack of state provision.

This is due to change and schools are going to be expected to publish their inclusion strategies and build designated "inclusion bases" to ensure students are taught closer to home alongside their peers. Every child with identified SEND will have a digital, legally backed Individual Support Plan. These are designed to replace broad SEN support and bypass lengthy diagnostic waits by ensuring quick, evidence-based interventions.

And if the child tries but fails to get up the ramp do you shrug your shoulders and walk on or do you stop to help?

Because here is a child who is struggling.

Many actually are. Have you read the thread? The child in a wheelchair will need a ramp to go with the wheelchair. The child in the op has been offered neither the equivalent of a ramp or a wheelchair.

Nah if they try and fail then we encourage them to try again.

A bit like any other skill it takes a while to master and we do not tell kids to try things once and then give up.

Maybe you do....

If a child can't ride a bike on their first attempt do you tell them to give up and say nah they can't do it or do you give them little steps at a time like balancing, then peddling, then going down hills, going up hills, going round a corner....all the time encouraging them to develop that skill further until they master it?

Or do you let them stop at the first hurdle and then tell them they can't do it so never will and tell them they will never manage anything and to give up?

Nope as the mother has yet to offer said child any kind of support it seems.

Why has she not done this in 3 years?

So you tell kids who need wheelchairs to go without. Nice! Not actually legal and “we” don’t need to tell disabled ND children any such thing not least because to do so is hugely damaging and not the right way to handle neurodiversity.

Nah I will tell kids in wheelchairs that they need to develop their skills of manouvering their chair themselves.

Starting with simple pushing in a straight line on the flat...once they master that then going down a slight hill. Then how to turn left and right. Each time challenging them to make progress in this skill.

Telling kids who are ND that they will never be able to achieve a skill and never encouraging them to try or giving them to tools and support to try is disabling them. Telling them to give up as their needs means they cannot ever do things is wrong.

Encourage them to try with support in small steps as you would do with all kids.

No idea where you got the idea of telling kids in wheelchairs to go without their chair from - maybe your parents told you you could never read and to give up trying as it seems your basic understanding of sentences is lacking.

Do you think kids should never get shown how to propel their own chairs as their legs dont work so you see the child as worthless and cannot ever be taught anything?

Are... are you suggesting children in wheelchairs should just try harder to walk, also? Surely they should just be encouraged to try again. And again, if they still remain commited to being on the floor. Losers, the lot of them, no gumption these kids.

Analogy tennis at this point.

But my suggestion is based on evidence. Make some reasonable adjustments to help the child cope and access her education. As she matures, grows up and learns to manage her ND she can gradually be given more responsibility and bigger expectations.

She may never be good at timekeeping. I'm not i am completely time blind. But i've got better at putting systems in place when I know something is important and i have a strong support network who understand me. But i have learnt those systems over time and I was less capable at 14 as I assume were most people in the world.

Please learn to read darling.....

You really are clutching at straws about things I never said....

But nice try though....give you 10/10 for effort but 1/10 for basic reading skills.

She has highlighted how she has battled and things she has suggested. The child is away at school 8 hours, there is practically very little she can do during that time as she isn’t there. Handing her a laminated timetable and leaving a child so distressed she’s had therapy and hides outside to sort it herself is a sure fire way to MH struggles and dangerous coping strategies.

She can do things herself at the weekends and evenings to help her child. Lots of strategies can be practised at home with parents and then applied at school once the child is comfortable and showing success in the home situation. But then the parent needs to want to help their child themselves and want to put that time and effort in.

Oh, there are some things you approve accommodations for then? Good to know.

It sounded like you were trying to cover your error with bluster, glad we've cleared that up.

Without a ramp, kids in wheelchairs will be stuck. This child has no ramp let alone a wheelchair.

“Telling kids who are ND that they will never be able to achieve a skill and never encouraging them to try or giving them to tools and support to try is disabling them. Telling them to give up as their needs means they cannot ever do things is wrong.”

Literally nobody has suggested that. That is not what reasonable adjustments are meant for or do.

Such as?

There is a staggering amount of ignorance on here as regards what is ND and how to manage it. Also seem to be some posters who think they know better than professionals and experts who deal with ND children on a daily basis .

Gah - this thread has become really nasty. Just wanting to express solidarity with OP who has given absolutely no evidence of not wanting to help her child. She has in contrast shown how hard she is trying to support a child who is struggling massively with everyday life. Disgusting to start in with these digs on her parenting, honestly - what drives this sort of behaviour regardless of how you feel about levels of SEN support in schools?!

One thing I keep coming back to in all the noise on this is my conviction that absolutely no teen wants to stand out negatively from peers or to struggle with things other kids find easy. All these ‘perks’ people are begrudging ND kids are the very last thing they want. My son is desperate to fit in, be like his friends, access his education and not feel scared and overwhelmed. He has done more fighting and shown more resilience in just an ordinary week at school than most grown-ups I know. My DS would love to not need any supports.

But he cannot help how his brain works any more than a diabetic kid can start making their own insulin just by eating a sugary diet. In the wheelchair / ramp analogy, he’s just, at the age of 12, realised that he’s wheelchair bound and unable to keep up with his friends. He needs understanding that this is hard and then a bit of training and physio to get strong enough to control his chair. That is something he should be able to access while attending school with his peer group without anyone making ignorant assumptions about him (or how he has been parented).

Glad you finally learnt to read...now when will you allow kids with disabilities to learn new skills instead of telling them they are fit for nothing?

Such a good post. ❤️

Ermm yes they have. They have said that they want the school to do it all and many saying on here that kids with ND cannot learn these skills and it is on a par with telling a child in a wheelchair to learn to walk...

did you miss that?

A private full assessment costs £5-6k