To think amount of Roma and Traveller children withdrawn from school underage needs to be cracked down on?

[Jane379]

Two things have made me think about this.

One was the recent thread on Venezuela Fury, Tyson's daughter. Her situation appears slightly different as apparently she did receive tuition online but it made me look into the wider situation.

I know there has been improvement, and that many Roma & travellers families don't do this. But it shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Yes, some who do may homeschool their kids properly, but how many?

There needs to be more regulation of homeschooling.

Why do Roma & traveller kids often slip through the net? Is it sometimes linked to families moving around so children move from one LA to another?

There' nothing wrong with kids preferring to pursue technical options than academic, or living the travelling lifestyle. But school would give them a chance to choose.

I see, that is sad there is still that discrimination. If someone left the community (for that reason, or other reasons) would their parents/family usually still keep in touch?
Thank you for the info re the Kris system, that's interesting you knew the author's father : I suppose the community is quite tight-knit..

Sorry, I know I've asked a lot of questions! I understand if you don't want to answer anymore : however, if you are OK with one more : can I ask what differentiates Romani, Roma and Romnipen from English Roma?

No, the murderer was a member of the sect the Nihang who carry another sword in memory of the days when they defended the Sikh community against Mughal persecution. The sword was not the ordinary kirpan but it was connected to Sikhism and I think was carried legally due to that.

I can fully understand a parent wanting to be the one to tell their child.

Why should it be secret from boys though? They surely should know at some point so it doesn't come as a surprise that their wife has periods.

I see, that sounds really hard. Clearly the system needs to change to accommodate Roma kids better (though also ensure that no children are facing that kind of school situation to begin with!)

I wonder if this explains why many Roma on MN seem to have very negative attitudes to settled community behaviour in schools. If they are only allowed to go to the worst-behaved schools, no wonder they have a bad impression of typical behavior in schools...

This is the reason people get term time holiday fines. It's a necessary evil.

Thanks, these are great points re
'There needs to be efforts made to encourage education, and also real engagement to see what would make sense to allow that to happen. And I think real engagement, including looking at what the communities values and traditions as far as typical employment goes, would go a significant way toward creating buy in.'

I suspect better technical education in schools would encourage Roma as they seem to value trade-type work and self employment.

The best ideas would be likely to come from inside.- thus definitely.

I agree too re online education not being ideal. It's much better for kids to be learning in the flesh and blood world.

I don't think a young kid necessarily needs to be told about how babies are made re periods though it certainly wouldn't be wrong to explain. Personally my mother just told me when I was very small and asked what sanitary towels were when I came across them (about 4 or 5) that a period is when you release an egg every month, unless you're going to have a baby. She didn't explain how babies were made and I wasn't particularly curious at that age.

Hmm...personally I'd have no issue with gay relationships being mentioned but trans is a very different matter. There are a lot of issues with that.

I mean...I assume pp means that they wouldn't learn as kids but would when they get married (from their wife?)

What is the reason?

Colonial.

I'm sorry your mind is so closed.

But pp (ThejoyofNC) seems to also be objecting to children being told the basic mechanics of sex in biology (re reproduction). Surely it's not overstepping the mark for schools to teach this?

I'm not sure that huge numbers of parents have objected to school content re SRE, aside from trans issues, which many had objections to for obvious reasons. The parents objecting to gay relationships being mentioned generally tend to be minority groups like conservative Muslims & Jews. Thus obviously doesn't make their concerns invalid just because they'rd minority groups, but it isn't the same as 'huge groups' protesting.

Yes but in schools it's taught around age 9 - not age 4.
4 year olds don't need to know the details but 9 year olds do.
That's different.

Good grief, we couldn’t possibly interfere with their cultural heritage for something as trivial as education. How could they possibly get the time off for things like Appleby if they had to attend school

You might be surprised how contentious primary SRE can be.

i was governor of a primary school for a while and we used a commercially available set of videos and lessons for sex ed .

there was a LOT of angst about it.

the HT ran an evening where parents could come to watch the videos and see the lesson plans.

which did help.

some parents don’t want school to do this job at all and withdraw their kid.

of this group some then do a decent job of it themselves but others just do not tell their kids anything resulting in girls thinking they are bleeding to death when they get their first period.

Pulling children out of school. They can't blatantly check every case right. So do this to minimise the chances people pull their kids out and hurt education.

Actually it is a legal right for our children to be given permission from the school to attend fairs and travel. Schools have to use the T code

How’s pulling kids out of school affecting holiday fines?

But that would be different. For a start, it implies they wouldn't learn these things until late teens at the earliest. Boys need to know about periods etc and the adolescent changes in their and girls' bodies way before that.

And (from what I've read about Traveller marriages) I can't imagine a macho Traveller husband sitting down over a cup of tea to listen and learn about gynaecology and obstetrics from his wife. Coming from a teacher or health professional this subject would carry more weight and the boy wouldn't have the option to just dodge it.

And, from what Traveller pps are saying here, it doesn't sound as if the girls/wives would be well-informed themselves.

It's honestly like being in 1850. I already had my doubts about Traveller attitudes, but this has been an eye-opener!!

Im Roma married to one of your lot and he wouldn’t sit down with a cup of tea and have a conversation about periods either so stop thinking your inferior to us. Most men in general know the basics about a women’s body and quite frankly I don’t know why they would need to know anymore. Of course boys know about periods it’s just that we dont talk openly about that kind of stuff or sex. I warned all my girls when I thought they were close to starting their periods about what would happen so it wasn’t a shock to them and explained what they are. I don’t need some stranger in a school to teach that. I can tell them myself.

I don't know much about the traveller community but YABU to start another home ed bashing thread and to mention another thread (the one about Tyson Fury's daughter) without including a link.

It's perfectly possible for home educated children to become successful well rounded, law abiding adults just as plenty of school kids do not. Plenty of home ed kids take exams and go on to college/uni (although these are not the be all and end all) and I am sure more would sit exams if they weren't so expensive to do privately. Personally I think gcses - at least maths and english should be funded for home ed students.

I home ed my son through gcses and we didn't used tutors. We used online courses and resources which is what worked best for both of us (I worked full time). He has gone on to college and is now at uni and doing great.

There are many reasons parents may choose to home educate and travelling around is as good as any. It would be very difficult to keep changing schools and given the probability of stigma and racism it might very well be the best choice for the child. Other reasons include the parents education philosophy but many choose it because school is not right for their child either due to SEN, anxiety, health, bullying or other reasons.

This is a brilliantly worded post! Thank you.

"over-stepping their role and imagining that they have some right to decide what the next generation thinks. It's explicitly an attempt for the state to shape its citizens, rather than seeing the state as reflecting the will of the citizens."

100%!

the attitude that the school aged child's formation belongs properly to the state, rather than the parents.

Additionally regarding this, many Rom still carry historical wounds. We know our history. Schools like to gloss over so much and tell our children to trust and depend on the state, not ourselves and each other.
The state is often lead into changes by governments. They are getting worse and power fought for and headed by some very strange people.

We still exist because we aren't a stupid people.

Parents have learned this, that they don't gave the "right" to decide what kids should learn, they don't have the expertise, even on ethical or other questions. Schools and teachers have been very complicit in this pov, even tried to enforce it at times.
Thinking of the child as the school's responsibility grows out of that attitude.

When you show us good education, most of us are interested.
When you show us something we can have if we accept all the bad bits as the price, we weigh it up, and many of us are not interested.

At this point many know we can actually do way better for ourselves, by ourselves.

Sure.

but the reason it is covered in school is that surprisingly large number of parents do not sit down and tell their girls in particular about periods and it comes as a massive shock to them.

i talked to my daughter about it, you talked to your daughter but there’s a lot of shit parents out there who won’t and it’s not fair on their kids.

We aren't officially only able to go to the worst places, but the system ensures that's what the majority of us get.

The Travellers that I worked with possibly had relatives in Ireland, but were of Scottish heritage and had very Scottish surnames.