To think amount of Roma and Traveller children withdrawn from school underage needs to be cracked down on?

[Jane379]

Two things have made me think about this.

One was the recent thread on Venezuela Fury, Tyson's daughter. Her situation appears slightly different as apparently she did receive tuition online but it made me look into the wider situation.

I know there has been improvement, and that many Roma & travellers families don't do this. But it shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Yes, some who do may homeschool their kids properly, but how many?

There needs to be more regulation of homeschooling.

Why do Roma & traveller kids often slip through the net? Is it sometimes linked to families moving around so children move from one LA to another?

There' nothing wrong with kids preferring to pursue technical options than academic, or living the travelling lifestyle. But school would give them a chance to choose.

I'd say you are very wrong.

In all honesty I'd advise you to read what you have written and consider it. There is absolutely nothing in this world that I cannot withdraw my children from. I'm really concerned that people allow the government to have this type of authority, to the point where they are okay with things being "mandatory" for their children.

Yes most parents/ families would remain in contact, but if the person insisted on publicly flaunting or 'coming out' they would potentially be shunned by the rest of the community, and their parents would find it very hard to understand why they would do that to their family. That could cause a lot of damage.

How choosing to leave is accepted generally, is governed by behaviors as well as why they are leaving.
Most who leave are still visitors and just quietly code-switch and give no reason for anyone to get too upset. Many who leave do so to achieve something in particular, and return.

I don't mind trying to answer most questions, but you will get different answers from different people.

Romnipen isnt a race, it's the thing that governs us as Rom and makes us Rom. The heart, or essence of what and who we are, way of being, code of conduct, cultural laws, hygiene codes, understandings ect
It's a living thing debated, sometimes disputed, but always there.

When Rom abandon Romnipen for assimilation they remain technically whatever designation they use, but are no longer considered properly Rom.

Language to describe ourselves and each other differs and is argued about as a result of others deciding who we are, and most of our equivalent of historians being slaughtered in WW2. Different organizations are continuously forming and re designating words.
For my vitsia or 'clan' what differentiates Romani and Roma from Romanichal (what your calling English Roma) is mainly lineage, language, how Romnipen is translated or observed, skin tone range, (or lack of it) dress codes, dispute systems etc

They are their own ethnic group and go back a long time.

@ThejoyofNC from gov.uk website.
I'm not sure if this is just the English rules or the whole of the UK but you CAN withdraw your child from SRE (Sex and Relationship Education).
However I believe you cannot withdraw your child from science lessons where pregnancy etc is taught - but that is being taught biological facts.

Boys need to know about periods etc and the adolescent changes in their and girls' bodies way before that.

• I agree with you but I suppose in the Roma community boys are not supposed to be having sex/relationships (at least not with Roma girls) and the sexes seem quite chaperoned at the least. So I suppose they'd argue that boys wouldn't need to know this until they marry.

Re macho attitudes : the pps who've spoken are Roma. The impression I've got is that Traveller attitudes to marriage etc and more macho though I expect there's variation.

Yes I thought that was the law. That seems reasonable to me. I can see it is difficult for Roma though as with any people with strict beliefs...

Thank you. It seems unfair that the person would not be able to be open (not necessarily dramatically 'come out') but that's good the parents would usually keep in contact if someone leaves.
This is very interesting re what differentiates different groups, it's terrible so much knowledge was lost due to persecution.

Can I ask a bit more info re adoption? You said before that adoption of Roma children would be handled in community. That makes sense. However : what happens if a child needs to be adopted due to physical/sexual abuse in the family? Or if there is DV? Would outside agencies be involved, or would justice administered by the community be preferred?

Yes most parents/ families would remain in contact, but if the person insisted on publicly flaunting or 'coming out' they would potentially be shunned by the rest of the community, and their parents would find it very hard to understand why they would do that to their family. That could cause a lot of damage.

Disgusting that this still happens in this day and age.

Frankly after reading this thread I am even more convinced that the government needs to stop pandering to cultural and religious sensitivity when it comes to the education of children and teenagers.

No parent should be able to keep their kids ignorant of biology and we seriously need to give all girls the choice to have a career and get into further education.

Not to mention that kids who might be gay, bi or whatever need to grow up without being indoctrinated at home to think that their natural orientation is shameful.

I am aghast that anyone would think that teenagers learning about periods and reproduction is not appropriate.

Anyone who lives in the UK should be expected to follow its values and not try to raise their kids like we are still living in the Stone Age.

I am an immigrant by the way before anyone starts bleating about racism/xenophobia and someone who was totally let down by her family when it came to education about periods, healthy relationships and so on.

If people have any issues with the UK being an open society where we think girls are more than just unpaid maids and baby factories and where we value education and people making their own choices and where we reject homophobia then I suggest that maybe this is not the country you should be living in.

👏👏👏

It's probably sadly similar in most conservative religious communities here...

I agree definitely re biology & education

'Not to mention that kids who might be gay, bi or whatever need to grow up without being indoctrinated at home to think that their natural orientation is shameful.' - I agree it's wrong to tell this to kids but you can't control what parents say at home. Otoh, school gives people a broader exposure to people & view generally
. I agree with TempestTost that travelling teachers/schools could be an option but otoh I think it would be better for Roma & traveller kids to have more of an opportunity to mix. AtchinTan seems to indicate that cross-sex friendships are discouraged, but surely single sex education (which a lot of religious parents also choose) could still allow for more or a mix?

Surely there must be ways this could be changed? It's clearly not fair on Roma children at all if these are the options they get.

Have there been any initiatives to set up schools run by Roma with Roma teachers etc? As there are, for instance, Ultra Orthodox Jewish schools which are single sex, teach according Jewish values, religion & Yiddish but also academic subjects? Wouldn't a community-run school be the ideal solution as education would not then be a thing being imposed by outsiders according to their terms?

I think that there is a strong ‘antivax’ culture in the community. There is a link between education and health outcomes. That’s a concern to me. That stat about infant mortality is surely a worry to everyone.

many Rom still carry historical wounds. We know our history. Schools like to gloss over so much and tell our children to trust and depend on the state, not ourselves and each other.

• I can understand feeling this way given the terrible history of persecution, and I agree schools can teach obedience to government in arguably negative ways. But otoh studies of totalitarian regimes are very much emphasised in the history curriculum and teaching is arguably much less didactic and more focused on helping students reason out their own views than in the past.

Again, wouldn't Roma-run schools solve this issue? Since education would not be seen as dictated on the terms of the government? Again a parallel with Jewish schools.

This is an important point. If there is undercounting that's giving a much worse picture than reality then that should be addressed.

This.

That seems incredible.

Not to mention the fact that LA's would shoot themselves in the foot if on one hand they insist on home educating parents providing education from 9-3 but fail to provide some SEND children with full time education and/or think 1 hour of daily home tutoring with a tutor provided by them is adequate when a child is too ill to attend school.

Those are pre 2007 stats from Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/50-of-travellers-die-before-39-study-1.808703

Surely that's just the case on which schools have places left? The popular outstanding school will not have places for kids who turn up months after the start of term and only stay a few months.

There was a school a few miles away from me ( primary ) that was nearly all traveller kids ( think had one non traveller girl at the time) I think it was the worse performing primary school for miles. Can't blame the" non travellers" for that

Sounds awful. Why were they beating other children? I hate violence.

Yes, which schools have places left surely would be a big factor. I thought AtchinTan's reference to 'the system' was implying there was overt discrimination, though?

It's difficult...arguably if people decide to have children, their needs should take precedence rather than parents' lifestyle. But in practice, children do sometimes have to fit around parents' jobs/lifestyles. Military & diplomatic kids, for one, who either have to move with the parents or go to boarding school.

Multiple reasons for this, including the very high prevalence of cousin marriage.

Yes, that stat was also 20 years ago in Ireland, hopefully the situation has improved at least somewhat now...