To think amount of Roma and Traveller children withdrawn from school underage needs to be cracked down on?

[Jane379]

Two things have made me think about this.

One was the recent thread on Venezuela Fury, Tyson's daughter. Her situation appears slightly different as apparently she did receive tuition online but it made me look into the wider situation.

I know there has been improvement, and that many Roma & travellers families don't do this. But it shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Yes, some who do may homeschool their kids properly, but how many?

There needs to be more regulation of homeschooling.

Why do Roma & traveller kids often slip through the net? Is it sometimes linked to families moving around so children move from one LA to another?

There' nothing wrong with kids preferring to pursue technical options than academic, or living the travelling lifestyle. But school would give them a chance to choose.

Boys (men) should know so if something isn't right (ie extreme bleeding, endometriosis, several hormone imbalance) they can at least get medical help.
When do you tell your daughters? When they get their first period? Or before.
How do you explain what a period is without explaining how babies are made?

Then there's SEND children who are homeschooled because the LA has failed to provide a suitable school place. I think if I was a parent of one of those children, I'd struggle not to laugh in their faces if they then came to me talking about the importance of education and trying to control how to home educate my child when they had already failed my child in the first place.

Yes, my child is at home for years because there was/is no suitable school place for them.

His siblings attend school,
His dad is a university lecturer.
A child not attending school does not necessarily mean parents don’t value education. It often means there is no other option for the family.

And absolutely yes…I would laugh in their faces! Though it’s heartbreaking in reality how let down DC has been.
They’ve stayed well away, mind you.

It is still low, but the percentage of Rom who go to university is a lot higher than recorded, because many keep it quiet and don't declare. It's a lot safer.

I don't know if Travelers also do the same thing generally, but certainly there's situations of Travelers and Rom going to university, spotting each other, nodding and keeping quiet and a respectable distance.

Boys and girls should know about reproductive biology. The old days of men talking about 'women's problems' is on its way out, I very much hope.

Both men and women are involved in sex and pro-creation and both should be knowledgeable. How can they understand and be sympathetic to each other's needs, otherwise?

This is going back to the Victorian period!

Well that answers my question.

NOT.

Why are you evading the question?

I think I have answered it (‘what are they doing here?’)

I’ve explained that the situation isn’t that much different in Ireland re discrimination. And that Irish travellers also have different cultural and social norms to the Irish settled community (ie the overwhelming majority of the population ).
Travellers are considered a separate ethnic group in Ireland.

In any case many Irish travellers in the UK have been there for generations. It’s their home.

Maybe in your opinion. I disagree. Call it whatever you want but no child of mine would learn such things.

Then they need to decide. Are they going to join UK culture and society, or are they going to actively exclude themselves and keep on complaining and wondering why they're not successful here.

And - before anyone cries 'who says they're not successful?' Well, they do - Traveller lobby groups are always whingeing about how disadvantaged they are. Yes, they always will be unless they get with the 21st century and allow their children to be educated with their peers.

Yes, I realise they manage to be very successful financially. I just hope they are paying all their tax as the rest of us have to do.

Oh, I think you'll find it's not just my opinion. Yours is a very outmoded and minority view in the UK.

Learn what "things"?
The basics of conception?
The basics of what is "normal" with periods? (ie nothing medically wrong).

This is not the case.

at primary schools it is mostly about relationships, and it’s referred to as SRE (sex and relationships education)

see eg here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/relationships-education-relationships-and-sex-education-rse-and-health-education/relationships-education-primary

the issues around SRE in primaries do not tend to be about teaching the mechanics of how babies are made (this is usually in secondary) but in looking at families.

some parents (and this does not just apply to travellers or Rom) are not always happy about the ethos that families come in all shapes and sizes including gay marriages and trans relationships.

the trans issue is particularly tricky in primary when it crops up because small children do not always have a full understanding of the world they live in and many parents do not really want their infant children asking about it.

it creates conflicts between the accepting ethos that schools try hard to create (families come in different shapes and sizes and that’s ok) and the home or religious ethos (eg Christians have a variety of beliefs on the acceptability to god of same sex relationships, Islam considers them wrong, etc etc).

it’s a fine line to walk.

That doesn't bother me in the slightest.

@Octavia64 that's a valid point I suppose.
But when my daughter was at primary school (she's 18 so not that long ago) the "all families are different" type stuff wasn't taught as part of a specific lesson but was just part of everyday life - right from Nursery/Reception age.
It was never a big huge "teaching" thing.
The biology part of sex/periods was specific science lessons.

Well, the most obvious reason is to get medical care if something is seriously wrong.

imagine a late stage miscarriage - blood and all sorts is pouring out. Is her husband not permitted to see because it’s a woman’s problem or is he allowed to help?

even in medieval times doctors could be men - are women like those in Saudi Arabia, not permitted to seek healthcare from a man?

You're leaping to some conclusions there.

@ThejoyofNC well you are claiming that boys/men don't get taught anything about periods.
If that is true then seriously how would they know if something is "wrong" with their wife/daughter and when to seek medical help?

I agree, but it's more a point of principle.

Men should be aware of all the issues surrounding sex, reproduction and child-rearing.

I cannot believe that nowadays in this country anyone thinks they should just do the sex bit and then walk away. That seems to be what is being suggested.

Unbelievable in 2026.

I am quite confused by this.

i have fairly serious things wrong with my womb, I’ve had to have a couple of operations and I spent most of my teenage years in pain.

I had cysts on my ovaries which burst and it’s like appendicitis then as your body gets lots of toxic sludge and goes into shock.

for me, my husband having some medical knowledge (and me having that medical knowledge) meant that when we were on honeymoon and a cyst burst he was able to get me to hospital and the medical care I needed.

if someone is ill, then understanding their illness can help them manage pain, be healthier and just cope better.

i am not being sarcastic or reaching or anything - when you say why would boys (men) need to know - well, my husband didn’t need to know but his understanding and knowledge helped him know when to seek urgent medical care at a point when I was in too much pain to even talk.

Why not though?
What is your specific objection to it?
Genuine question @ThejoyofNC.

Is it just that you think they’re too young still or are there other reasons?

It should bother you.

You are living, it seems, in some kind of bubble of repressed ideas.

Your choice. But how will your children navigate the modern world? They will not be equipped for it, and they won't make good partners or parents if they are so ignorant about sexual health, function and sexual politics.

It's always been the law that parents have quite a lot of leeway to direct their children's education. That's their job as parents.

State schools facilitate that for parents. It's not tantamount to a law that tells parents that they have to educate their kids a certain way. Kids are entitled to education which is a right the state might have to enforce at times, and it could theoretically mean at a certain point stepping in and defining what counts as education.

But historically that's been done with a light hand precisely because responsibility to decide what's appropriate resides with families rather than the state.

I'm sorry that your mindset is so colonial that you can't understand that all cultures are different and they shouldn't all change to conform to your one.

I think there is a larger underlying issue your post touches on.

State education derives its legitimacy from parents, ultimately. It should be broadly acceptable to the vast majority of parents. State schools really have no business teaching kids things which a lot of parents object to.

When you have increasing numbers of parents withdrawing their children, or upset, because they have a problem with the content, that's really a sign of a deeper problem with the schools themselves. Usually over-stepping their role and imagining that they have some right to decide what the next generation thinks. It's explicitly an attempt for the state to shape its citizens, rather than seeing the state as reflecting the will of the citizens.

Teachers complain a lot now, and rightly, about parents treating schools as if they should be doing everything. That however has in part been caused by the attitude that the school aged child's formation belongs properly to the state, rather than the parents. Parents have learned this, that they don't gave the "right" to decide what kids should learn, they don't have the expertise, even on ethical or other questions. Schools and teachers have been very complicit in this pov, even tried to enforce it at times.

Thinking of the child as the school's responsibility grows out of that attitude.

You are so right. Many of my friends and family have have serious problems with withdrawing their children from sex ed lessons. What makes them think they have the right or the power to override the parents decision on this topic?

I might be wrong but I don't think you can withdraw children from science lessons - which is where the basics of human biology/how babies are made/periods etc but you can withdraw from PHSE lessons (which is more the relationship stuff).
I still don't understand why you are so against learning basic biology facts.
It's important to know and get the facts correct - not what has just been passed down from parent to child.