To think amount of Roma and Traveller children withdrawn from school underage needs to be cracked down on?

[Jane379]

Two things have made me think about this.

One was the recent thread on Venezuela Fury, Tyson's daughter. Her situation appears slightly different as apparently she did receive tuition online but it made me look into the wider situation.

I know there has been improvement, and that many Roma & travellers families don't do this. But it shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Yes, some who do may homeschool their kids properly, but how many?

There needs to be more regulation of homeschooling.

Why do Roma & traveller kids often slip through the net? Is it sometimes linked to families moving around so children move from one LA to another?

There' nothing wrong with kids preferring to pursue technical options than academic, or living the travelling lifestyle. But school would give them a chance to choose.

Just like the Grooming Gangs.

Is this your genuine curiosity again?

Again, I said growing away. Not moving away. Feeling less part of her community, less sense of identity and less pride in her heritage.

@Puffinsandcoffee Is it possible for your daughters to continue in education and pursue a high-flying career whilst still remaining a part of your/their community?

It's possible in that there are no rules against it. But.I don't know if you've understood what I mean, based on the question. I mean that, based on my experience, it's really hard to be fully in both worlds. Which is a comment about both worlds, not a veiled comment about controlling/ abusive men barring right of return to educated women. It is really hard to resist the pressure of the dominant culture though..it can feel easier to hide and try to fit in. And there are huge losses if you do that.

I am an educated woman with a decent job if not a career, and I'm also from a quite closed and sometimes despised ethnic group. I think I can speak with some authority on the subject of the thread, but honestly the tone of so many questions and comments has demonstrated why I have reservations about the power of education to protect my kids. It has felt a bit like my education has mattered less than my ethnicity in terms of how my views are being responded to.

Correct!✅

With the vital distinction that traveller traditions don't include child sex abuse.

I'm sorry: you mentioned earlier the green card system & I forgot! Why did they stop it if it was working well? What a bad decision...

I don’t think anyone should be able to educate their child at home unless they can demonstrate that they can provide a suitable education.

Travellers and non-travellers should be treated equally in this regard.

Marrying girls off at 16 is borderline child sex abuse in my opinion.

I don’t think anyone should be able to educate their child at home unless they can demonstrate that they can provide a suitable education.

Even when LA's fail to provide a suitable education in some cases? Especially children with SEND.

I agree.

I wasn't going to respond to that post, but since this makes me concerned that others might agree, I'll just say this:

1. To me, this clumsy conflating of marriage younger than you approve of with the most despicable systematic exploitation and rape of vulnerability girls is an insult to those girls. It trivialises their experience for your own ends.
2. Marriage at 16 is legal. You might not approve. But it's legal, consensual, and, fwiw, I think fairly unusual even among travellers. If you think there's not much difference between that and the grooming gangs, your moral compass is so messed up that I can only assume it's because you're blinded by anti traveller prejudice.

the problem with saying that (that Roma traditions don't include child sexual abuse) is people who don't like Roma/travellers will now try to find examples of Roma exploiting children and they will definitely find them because you always do if you look hard enough.

40% of the UK grooming gangs were South Asian which is an overrepresentation in terms of their percentage of the population but also means the other 60% were not South Asian and many were white British. Before it was Asian grooming gangs other gangs were grooming vulnerable teenage girls in places like Rotherham. The police have a very long history of turning a blind eye and for a long time the girls were viewed as prostitutes/slags who were asking for it by wider society too. And many white British men go to Thailand by themselves or on stag dos to Amsterdam.

Everyone thinks Child exploitation is wrong when it's someone from an outgroup doing it to someone from an in group. When the "victim" is an outgroup and the perpetrator an ingroup it's much harder for people to see it the same way. Particularly when the perpetrator is in a position of authoritym that's how hideous abuse happened in children's homes, the Catholic church, the scouts very often for years and years. It isn't just the Muslim men in Bradford etc who had a "culture" of that. Arguably all the white British social workers, police had a culture of ignoring it. And in America you have black victims of CSE not seen as deserving of protection/adultified and grooming/pimp culture was weirdly pushed in the 00s by mainstream music. So that's a culture too.

I would also be amazed if there aren't cases of children being abused within the Roma community and it not being dealt with if the abuser is reasonably well regarded. Not because there is anything particularly wrong with Roma. But because people are people, men are men, boy mums are boy mums. If you assume "we would never do that" it's harder to spot it. And if stuff does come out then the same people using recent crimes as an excuse to attack Muslims/immigrants will quite happily turn it on Roma/travellers/people like you.

Edited to include the quote I was referring to because it didn't show up anymore

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here. The problem with saying what?? I would never say " we would never do that". I know too well that CSA happens across all cultures including my own. My point was that implying that young marriage is in some way comparable to the grooming gangs is offensice both to the survivors of those gangs and to cultures, of which their are many historically and globally, who marry relatively young, including travellers.

Oh, @Persephonia1966 I see now with your edit!

So, of course there is CSA in traveller communities as there is everywhere else. What I meant was that it's not a traveller tradition. Not something honoured or celebrated or practised systematically or identified with the way other practices like music are. It's a crime which the vast majority of travellers are disgusted by, just like everyone else.

But that's not me saying it is practiced as a tradition in the cultures the grooming gangs came from either. It was a response to someone ocomparing the police responses to each

No it isn't- it's illegal in England and Wales now, as it should be.

Sorry, I didn't realise you were responding to something else comparing police responses. I agree with you I think

Well I'm not in England or Wales. But that said, I kind of agree it's too young to be making such a huge decision. A few more years to figure out what you want and who you like is a good thing for girls I think.

I was great friends with the Vindens years ago :) The wife was a darling. Was something of a shock when Sam was arrested for such violent crimes. I don’t think I’d realised how it all functioned.

That said they were also incredibly loyal to people who were good to them.

How common is that among travellers, though? It's unfortunately still legal in Scotland and the Isle of Man but not in England. I don't agree with everything pp's said but she hasn't defended anything like that & I think a lot of responses are being necessarily aggressive to her.

I'm sorry for the gap in replies, I'd been meaning to do several for the last few days but was unexpectedly very busy. I'll hopefully be able to do them tonight...

Can I ask where you are? I understand if not. I understand not wanting to divulge country but I think it's important to know if pps are not in England as most people on threads like this assume posters are talking about the situation in England and of course issues can be very different in other parts of the UK.

I have just looked up Sam Vinden

Not exactly an upstanding member of society

Before it was Asian grooming gangs other gangs were grooming vulnerable teenage girls in places like Rotherham. The police have a very long history of turning a blind eye and for a long time the girls were viewed as prostitutes/slags who were asking for it by wider society too.- this is a key point, several of the police also participated in the abuse too! 😡

Yes, marriage at 16 I disagree with but it's nothing like grooming gangs! Terrible comparison...