To think amount of Roma and Traveller children withdrawn from school underage needs to be cracked down on?

[Jane379]

Two things have made me think about this.

One was the recent thread on Venezuela Fury, Tyson's daughter. Her situation appears slightly different as apparently she did receive tuition online but it made me look into the wider situation.

I know there has been improvement, and that many Roma & travellers families don't do this. But it shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Yes, some who do may homeschool their kids properly, but how many?

There needs to be more regulation of homeschooling.

Why do Roma & traveller kids often slip through the net? Is it sometimes linked to families moving around so children move from one LA to another?

There' nothing wrong with kids preferring to pursue technical options than academic, or living the travelling lifestyle. But school would give them a chance to choose.

Thank you. I agree re secondaries.

Any law should of course take into account children who are ill or dying. As I assume the German law does?

So far as I'm aware, in Scotland the family merely had to submit a letter saying that they were home educating their child.

In my area, Traveller girls attended school until they were 16; the boys were often taken out early, but it was an open secret that the home education was learning to work with their fathers. I recall that one boy disappeared when he was 13 and had only attended a couple of days in the two years he was with us.

The girls did attend school regularly, apart from holidays and time off for Appleby. The whole family would go on the road together in the summer.

I used to teach a traveller girl.

she’d gone to secondary and was in year 9 at the time. She could read at about 8 year old level and write a few words.

she was in bottom set maths which I taught.

her parents had made her move out at age 12 into a caravan they kept on their drive and she had to keep it clean and cook for herself.

she hated school and she hated her life. She was known as a traveller around the village and the other teens were very wary of her.

she used to make herself physically vomit so that she could go home as she’d gone through the process of saying she was ill to go home and her parents and the school concluded that she was mostly lying so they agreed she wouldn’t be sent home unless she had physically vomited so she used to go to the loos and make herself vomit.

i felt heartily sorry for her.

she couldn’t access much of the lessons at all due to poor reading and her life just seemed a endless run of misery.

i hope her life improved.

i really think she's trapped because how can she ever leave?

The same way her mother in law did in pretty similar circumstances? I wouldn't wish the royal life on anyone but Catherine Middleton went into it as a grown adult woman with money and an education. If she hadn't had that education then I doubt she'd be in a stronger position.

Does anyone really think Nigella Lawson would have been in a better position if she had a year 6 education and no job when her husband started banging her around? She isn't with him now - she walked away.

I see, thank you for the info re adoption. It's seems unfair for Roma to not be allowed to adopt non Roma kids like that. Otoh adoption agencies often try to place children in culturally similar families so that could be an issue.

'would have had to go against a lot of things to be at that point.' - re this, I can see sperm donation would be hard for the reasons you said.

What about just living in a relationship with a same sex partner though? Would they be treated negatively?

Re Roma adoption, that sounds like a good system. I read Damian Le Bas' book The Stopping Places recently and he said Roma Kris no longer existed among English Roma, which is clearly not correct then...also from his book, I think I remember your username means 'stopping places'?

What problems? If people want to remove their children from a school setting because they don’t want their children mixing with non travellers that’s down to them. It’s not your culture and no one needs to conform to what you think is the right way. Travellers do well for themselves, they are probably doing better than you tbh

Yeah the career I had is one very few women sustain after kids. The men usually manage to though...

My current job is well paid compared to what my siblings or cousins earn. It wouldn't pay the mortgage never mind anything else. It pays the childcare, and once we get funded hours it'll maybe pay for a nicer bathroom, a holiday, that sort of thing. I feel really lucky to have it, as it's not stressful or dangerous and it's secure and well above minimum wage, but it wouldn't keep me and my kids in the house, prob not even in a home near their school as it's a fairly expensive area.

Sadly anyone can choose to 'educate" their child at home. There are no real checks made, no requirement for qualifications in any subject, no requirement to follow the National Curriculum, or indeed any specific Curriculum, no requirement to study for qualifications of any kind.
The law really does need to change to protect all children, not just Roma and Travellers children.

No. I live in a village with a massive traveller population surrounding it, and of course they send their children to the local primary. After years of our children being beaten, we send ours elsewhere.

At least they get peace from them when they go to high school.

I don't know anything about the personal lives of the women you've listed, and it was the personal lives I'm talking about - whether they're safe and doing 'better' than me in that respect. That's why I referred to famous women, because I know more about them. Maybe the fame creates vulnerabilities too though, I don't know?

It started with boys trying to lift their skirts up. Then trying to grope them.
But some of the girls in the schools where doing sexual things with boys through choice. Boys where then trying to get my girls doing them, and trying to force them when they wouldn't.
We've been in many areas, but could usually only get a place at schools others didn't want that weren't full up.

Erm. I don't think Diana's leaving went too well. To the extent that she really left at all - there seems to still be a bit of royal "ownership" of her/ her legacy. Either way, I'm not saying they'd be in a stronger position without education. I'm just saying it's not clear they're in a significantly stronger position with it.

I want my kids to get an education - though it doesn't have to be in school if that doesn't work for them. But I'm under no illusions that it'll keep them safe if they end up with an abusive partner.

Well Nigella's career and thus her education did mean she wasn't totally financially dependent on Saatchi for one thing...

Re Diana leaving : yes that ended in tragedy, but that was due to her own struggles and vulnerability and those who later took advantage of her. If she had not been involved with the Fayed family and worn a seat belt she would probably be alive. Her death was not caused by the royals.

What a terrible experience. It's disgusting these boys & teachers weren't punished.

You could only get a place at schools others didn't want? Was this due to discrimination? May I ask if you travel during term time so by necessity have to switch schools (which I assume would make it harder to find good places)?

I'm soooo glad you mentioned that case because I thought the exact same - had they been in education this likely wouldn't have happened.

I think most/all of these women are safe as far as we know, yes.
Most are arguably famous too : re fame though, powerful people tend to often be more selfish and have less empathy , so famous women pairing up with high powered men may be more vulnerable in that sense.

Your 3 choices are also arguably famous due to their personal lives (at least Middleton & Johnson), and that is arguably rarely a recipe for a healthy/stable relationship.

Similar to a comment a woman from a Travellers Support Group made in the past.

She was constantly visiting young traveller men in prison and wondered to what extent being taken out of school had led to them going to prison

If I were to make some points

Firstly all children have a right to an education. Now the current school system is far from perfect but large numbers of children are being withdrawn to 'home education' Religious schools etc and not being given what they need to be part of mainstream society.

Secondly why dont we treat being at risk of involvement in crime, or involvement in crime as a child protection issue? That means taking robust and assertive action with children and families, including I suggest removing some children at birth. It also means that for adults who cause or permit under 18's to become involved in crime the crucifixion will be the soft option.

They couldn't live together in most Rom communities.

I havent read Damien Le Bas's book, but I know of him and knew his Father, and yes that's what my name means.

Rom covers the big three: Romani, Romanichel, and Roma and some smaller groups all based around something called Romnipen.

What Damien Le Bas is calling English Roma will be Romanichal. That's English Rom that have been here several centuries mainly marrying among themselves, and their language which comes from Rom, changing into Angloromani.

I wouldn't be surprised if they no longer use the Kris system, so he may not have been wrong. My lot still do, but we still stick to a lot of things.

Kemi is right, multi racial but mono cultural.

We moved a lot for work so would move schools too. We just got sent to whatever school couldn't fill it's places. They wouldn't let us in at good schools.

What they carry is a tiny ornamental symbolic knife. Like a piece of jewellery. They are not walking round with swords. The man that killed henry murdered him with a large blade. Nothing to do with Sikhism

@Kokonimater Yes you're absolutely right - the Kirpan (one of the Five Ks). It is purely symbolic and nothing to do with keeping on one's person to cause physical harm. Quite the opposite - a massive part of the Sikh faith is about showing respect, charity and kindness to others, including those of different faiths. I am not a Sikh myself but I have some wonderful Sikh friends whom I have nothing but respect for.

Of course there are going to be bad people in any faith or culture - but surely no-one can now believe that "all Sikhs are bad." The young man who stabbed Nowak was absolutely not upholding the values of the Sikh faith.

I think a basic question here is how much do we expect everyone of different cultures, backgrounds, religions, experiences, needs etc to conform to one set idea of what childhood, parenting standards and education should look like. No 5 year old is getting a choice and choosing to follow the mainstream schooling system is also an active choice. As a society, we have obviously decided some things are out of bounds and unacceptable for anyone, like making small children work in factories. However we also have leeway for parents to make their own choices about what they want for their children. I know parents living quite alternative, "creative" life styles who Flexi/home school and are adamant that the mainstream system is harmful and not what they want for their kids. We now offer more flexibility for children who are neuro divergent and that's a good thing. Some people choose to send primary school aged kids to boarding school, I can't really get my head around doing that - but it's not really queried as they are rich and it is a "good education". It also depends on what we want and hope for our kids as adults. If your hope is they'll live separately to you, have a "mainstream" job etc, then GCSEs, a levels etc are needed. If hope they'll stay living next door, marry young and work for the family that doesn't matter. I would probably prefer to live in a society that tolerates different ideas of what a good "education" is, with safeguards to prevent serious harm. Whatever point on the spectrum that is set at, I think it should apply to all and not just certain groups.