To think amount of Roma and Traveller children withdrawn from school underage needs to be cracked down on?

[Jane379]

Two things have made me think about this.

One was the recent thread on Venezuela Fury, Tyson's daughter. Her situation appears slightly different as apparently she did receive tuition online but it made me look into the wider situation.

I know there has been improvement, and that many Roma & travellers families don't do this. But it shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Yes, some who do may homeschool their kids properly, but how many?

There needs to be more regulation of homeschooling.

Why do Roma & traveller kids often slip through the net? Is it sometimes linked to families moving around so children move from one LA to another?

There' nothing wrong with kids preferring to pursue technical options than academic, or living the travelling lifestyle. But school would give them a chance to choose.

We do. Anyone can withdraw their child from school and state they are going to home school them.

That was Dale Farm. There is a well established site there and the gypsies have lived on it for years. The problem came when they started extending out against planning laws. It’s also worth mentioning that Essex has more traveller pitches than virtually any other county with more in the pipeline.

As to the school, it was a little village school called Crays Hill that grew as the traveller site grew. Due to the different cultures many parents did end up removing their own kids to other schools, or not applying at all.

Let’s not be coy about it. Different cultures have different values and regardless of how politically correct we want to be sometimes cultures do clash, however hard we try to avoid it. Particularly with small children who are learning how to navigate their environment.

I think you misunderstood the point of my comparison. Or maybe it does make sense. I just mean the women that seem to be held up as successful within mainstream culture don't persuade me that it's something to aspire to.

@Jane379 Do you honestly think all of those who chose to EHE (Electively Home Educate) can afford tutors? I mean my rate (and this is via the LA and not private) is over £30 ph.

I'm really sorry you had that experience and I agree that educatio doesn't mean you can ask for help. But it does give some opportunities. Surely your situation would have been even worse if you were illiterate? Education also hopefully provides more job opportunities.

'she's a symbol of a culture'- I understand what you're saying but loads of people now think the royals are totally anachronistic. As I said, most people are not living anything like Kate Middleton. Yes, arguably it is very hard for her to leave but Princess Diana managed it even if her end was tragic. Moreover, it would be the same for a male royal spouse : it's more about the system than gender.

When you say Kate reminds you that what you have is better, might you elaborate how you feel your culture is better than mainstream British culture for women?

Due to the different cultures- why was this? Was there violence? Bad behavior towards non travellers?

The Police seem scared of them!

What about other women held up as successful? Carrie Johnson is hardly some huge role model in media. What about...I don't know, journalists like Hadley Freeman or Christina Lamb? Authors like Hilary Mantel, who you mentioned yourself? Actresses like Claire Foy? Screenwriters like Sally Wainwright? Many politicians? Lawyers like Helena Kennedy? TV presenters like Lyse Doucet ? Etc

You're arguably focusing on a skewed sample.

Yes but at least, as you said yourself, it's been heavily challenged in recent years.

But not anyone can home school their children to the required standard!

Sexual activity does take place at schools, my kids came back shocked at what was normal, and the girls got into trouble defending themselves.
Schools say they mustn't hurt boys who try to assault them, but get away without hurting them and tell a teacher.
Our girls are taught to hurt them hard enough to get away and learn not to disrespect them. Then they find the girls ganging up on them for their values.
We don't normally have to prevent them, they are brought up differently.
The girls normally chaperone each other. There is less concern about the boys, but there is a lot of concern about disease and it being spread. It's considered unclean and not acceptable.
Same sex Gaudja friend that's respectful and fits in is fine. Generally they come from minority cultures or occasional known old school Traveler families though.

Honestly, Mumsnet has been weirdly helpful despite some really awful criticism of my community, my family, and me myself for not leaving it. Which means definitely, being able to read and write and think things through with a bit of distance has made a huge difference to me. Definitely. I would give everyone the gift of literacy if I could.

Job opportunities, not so much. I have a nice job that's well paid and once I'm not paying childcare I'll actually have the money! But kids definitely was the end of any career I might have had. Which is fine, but a fact, and my education did nothing to protect me from that.

I am entirely dependent on my husband for the roof over my head and the lifestyle I have. Again, fine, but what good was my education?

My culture is better, to me, just because it's mine. There are things I prefer, values and traditions, but that's personal preference. I wouldn't expect anyone else to "integrate" into it, and I just ask the same.

^^This. As an HCP I've worked in 2 areas with a high number of travellers. IME if you treat them with respect they will be very respectful in return. The problem is that many people go in all guns blazing and then their backs go up largely because they experience such high levels of prejudice in their day to day life.
I remember talking to one of the hospital security staff and he said he often had to break up issues between staff and travellers but in the vast majority of cases he felt staff had caused the problems by being aggressive from the start of their dealings with them.

Thank you, I'm glad MN has been helpful. There are definitely harsh posters here but it's a good place often too.

That's good you have a job. However, when you say kids ended your career and you're dependent on your husband...can I ask what career this was? I'm assuming it was one that's hard to combine with children?

Also,,if you have a job that's well paid, why do you say you're dependent entirely on your husband for the roof over your head? Surely you're not, if you're earning money yourself?

So why the double standard? Why is it only ok for boys to sow their wild oats?

Different cultures have different values, expectations and in some case, language. It doesn't matter whether the majority of the pupils are Travellers, Indians, Brazilians, Fundamental Christians etc. If the culture of that majority is not the same as the core culture of the country you live in, then it will not give you the life skills for navigating that core culture of the country you live in - which really is the purpose of education.

And removing your children from the opportunity to learn about the country they live in is severely limiting their choices too.

Surely, any caring parent wants to give their children the best possible chance to succeed?

Thank you. That's good to hear re friends.

'Sexual activity does take place at schools, my kids came back shocked at what was normal, and the girls got into trouble defending themselves.
Schools say they mustn't hurt boys who try to assault them, but get away without hurting them and tell a teacher.'

• that sounds terrible. It sounds like this was sexual assault, not sex, then? This school should be punished for not protecting students. Can I ask if your area is quite high crime? I know that there are problems across areas due to schools being discouraged from disciplining bad behavior too much.

In terms of home education, regulating it is difficult for a number of reasons.

firstly, a large minority of children who are home educated are in that position because mainstream schools are not in a position to meet their needs.

there are hospital schools for example, for children who are in hospital for medium or long term, but to pick an example a teen with terminal cancer does not need to be sitting GCSEs and it would be cruel to force them to do so.

children die. Children have serious mental and physical illnesses and it just isn’t appropriate to insist that all children reach a particular standard of education.

secondly, in the U.K. legally educating a child is the responsibility of the parents. There are countries where home education is not allowed - for example in Germany where I believe this is to make sure there was no home education by neo-nazis and that everyone was exposed in schools to essentially pshe.

that system in the uk has been in place for a long long time and it mostly works well. In general schools are seen as the best way to provide education (with some opting for specialist schools where needed eg schools for the deaf and the blind) and so there is significant goodwill in the population towards the state education system.

virtually 100% of the population think primary schools are better than home education and nearly everyone uses them.

secondaries are more problematic, as to be honest are teenagers generally (I used to teach them abd they are lovely but bloody hell can they be hard work) and on a personal level I do think there’s a lot that could be done to make secondaries better places.

Sexual assault is very common in most secondaries.

(ex teacher)

ofsted a few years ago made it a priority for schools to start looking at peer on peer sexual assault.

This is from 2019 but it’s become higher priority since then with all the Andrew Tate stuff and manosphere.

https://educationinspection.blog.gov.uk/2019/10/04/what-is-peer-on-peer-abuse/

Like a lot of issues I don't think this is really about Rom/Irish Travelling communities. Its about whether home education does what it should, in any community.

There should be some requirements about home education to ensure children get an education that gives them opportunity & choice in life. Maths & English, then parents should have to evidence either vocational or academic learning. Eg taught on the job construction or plumbing skills? Fine. "Learning through play" craft and hobby activities without the structure and skill progression to lead to meaningful employment in adulthood - less fine.

A similar example is the issue of traveller encampments on green belt land.

This is just another facet of the housing/cost of living crisis. Why does anyone think travellers buy green belt land for pitches? It's much cheaper! A premium plot of developable land with planning, big enough for an extended family group to pitch caravans on with outbuildings for horses & washing/toilet facilities separate to vans, costs literally millions these days. The typical traveller family includes self employed tradespeople with poor access to mortgages. No, they can't afford that grey belt plot a housing developer wants.

Just as we campaign for more social & affordable housing this should include suitable traveller pitches.

Its not a traveller issue its a cost of land/housing issue.

Because the reality is that the vast majority of children of Traveller families withdrawn from schools will not be home schooled. Children cannot be withdrawn from school without providing a plan to their LA of what home schooling will look like. And is monitored by authorities. Children from Travellers families will obviously fall through this net because they move from LA to LA, so will just disappear into a black hole.

I find these kind of threads so weird. Why are people pretending that they care about traveller and gypsy children’s education? If they moved next door to you you’d want them gone. Why concern yourself with other cultures and acting as if you give a shit.

Ah. Thank you.

I know that life for Traveller girls can be strict. I think I mentioned elsewhere that one of my former pupils married young and was disowned when she left her husband because of DV.

The one good thing is that she'd at least attended school until 16 and was able to return to the community where she'd lived and attended high school. She was a strong, intelligent young woman and I think she'll manage - but I cannot imagine how she'll come to terms with being pushed away by her cousins: I recall that she had three cousins in her year group and she was very close to them.

I'd have no problem with a traveller family next door providing they weren't anti social.

We all live in the same society. If any group has problems they should be addressed.

Gay Rom who wanted to go through sperm donation would probably already not be around the community because it would be unlikely they'd find a Rom man to donate, and would have had to go against a lot of things to be at that point.

A Rom who wanted to adopt through the authorities, would probably be turned down unless they had integrated into the Gaudja community because they'd be getting a Gaudja child who the authorities wouldn't let grow up Rom.

Rom to Rom 'adoption' is more like fostering until the child has become perfectly fitted within the family. For it to be a permanent transfer there's Kris (court) hearing and evidence that it's being done freely from all sides and everyone knowing what blood lines so that good matches can be made later. Cultural memory of who is who, stops inbreeding.

Isn't flaunted means everyone knows but it's not discussed.