To think all knives including religious ones should be banned, after what happened to Henry Nowak

[BritIndianGal]

A more sensible thread this time. I think all carrying of knives should be banned with no religious exemptions allowed , the law should be called the Henry Nowak Bill ....in memory of the young man who lost his life

The law should be specifically no wearing of daggers in public unless required for occupational reasons

Chat Gpt says the religious rule came into place in the 1600s against Mughal persecution - so not needed unless the Mughals come to town again and actively start persecuting. Safe to say.

I came here from India in 2007 and where I first lived had lots of Pakistanis, I wanted to blend in and get along, my best friend in school was muslim , Indian muslim but- I had never met a Pakistani before I came here.

I stopped wearing the bindi tikka on my forehead to blend in , to reinforce what we had in common (mmm yummy biryani etc) rather than our perceived differences (which I dont believe are real differences anyway, as all Gods are one) - I never saw this as me being ashamed of my Hindu culture, I dont need to shout it from the rooftops. Any Pakistanis I met were lovely to me, and also made it a point to tell me all the Indian things they loved (Bollywood movies etc).

Anyway, just really saddened by the Henry Nowak news. Cant stop thinking about this.

Knives are banned you great prune.

Maybe ban them again ? In bold type so people pay attention ?

Op that was your choice to stop displaying your faith/ culture in certain ways in order to assimilate. The problem with what you're suggesting is that someone else should have decided for you which parts of your culture/ faith you should be allowed to keep and which you wouldn't be allowed to keep. And you'd get no say in the matter.

I stopped wearing the bindi tikka on my forehead to blend in

You can wear a bindi and be part of a wider community, like you can wear the Sikh turban and/or the kara or for that matter the kirpan and be part of it. Why is blending in so important? Surely we should accept that people have different religious/cultural symbols and unless they are actually harmful, why do they need to 'blend in'?

The British (including the white ones) are a bunch of mongrels, in a really great way. The waves of people coming here from prehistory have made us what we are. Join in by all means, but losing your cultural identity is not necessary.

Most stabbings are done using knives that are illegal to carry anyway so it wouldn’t make much difference

Unless we create a teleport machine chefs, fencers and the many other professions (and hobbies like fishing, hunting) that use them, I am one of them, are going to have to carry them in public. the vast majority of them professions always do in a fairly discrete and sensible manner anyway

Well we are all grown ups and we know how to be politically correct all the time when out in public

But Henry was only 18 , saw a person with a huge dagger strapped to his waist , possibly picked the wrong moment and wrong person to joke around with and apparently said ' you a bad man innit, say you a bad man' according to the sky news article , after which crazy violent guy says I am a bad man and conveniently uses the same dagger to attack.

So teach all 18 year old boys to never joke around (my DC are teens, we all know how impossible this is?) or just stop complicating everything with so many different cultural nuances, exemptions, religions , differences in this day and age and ban anything that doesnt make sense and cant possibly end well like having anything sharp worn on oneself. Ppl could hurt themselves first off, at least ban it for that reason

Let's all be beige drones who all think and look the same. Ban everything else. That'll make us happier and safer.

Cobblers. Human difference and cultural nuance is one of the great joys of my life. Stop applying 10 seconds of thinking to complex and challenging issues and deciding your uneducated reckons will solve society's ills

Yes...all knives, including those carried for religious or cultural reasons, should be banned in public in this country.

edited for sp.

I don’t know about the accuracy of that statement but I don’t think ChatGPT is a great source for any argument.

Criminals being known for being put off stabbing someone because it’s illegal

I think the laws regarding religious exemptions do need looking at. That doesn’t necessarily mean a ban on the kirpan.

Seemingly kirpans should only be carried by baptised Sikhs. They can wear a token one on a necklace, it doesn’t need to be a full size lethally sharp knife.

One thing that shocked me about the death of Henry Nowak is that Sikhs have a religious exemption from UK knife laws. Generally locking blades over 3 inches are illegal. Possession by anyone else is illegal and can lead to prosecution and a criminal record. Note: I’m not a lawyer and this is what I’ve understood from reading on the Gov website!

We have strict gun laws in this country. Possession isn’t illegal in the right circumstances. But gun owners have to be licensed and the police check they are stored safely in the home. People who are wholly unsuited to owning guns are unlikely to be able to obtain a gun licence. Obviously that depends on those concerns being known about in advance.

Henry Nowak’s killer was clearly wholly unsuitable to be in possession of a sharp knife. Apparently concerns about his love of weaponry had been aired in his local Sikh community. Police found an arsenal of weapons when the home was searched.

If in government, I would be looking at licensing for Sikhs to carry full size sharp kirpans. Much like the licensing system for guns. Home checks could be made to ensure that they are stored appropriately and that no one in the home has access if they would be unlikely to obtain a licence themselves. Before issuing licences, police could cross check with the local Sikh community that the individual is really a baptised Sikh and that they are of good character. Anyone who raises red flags doesn’t get a licence and they’ll have to make do with a mini charm on a necklace which wouldn’t be subject to any checks or licensing.

It wouldn’t be perfect, but it might weed out people like Henry Nowak’s killer. He was able to legally carry a lethal weapon with no checks or oversight whatsoever, simply because of his religion. That doesn’t seem right.

I can't see a single case in the UK that a Kirpan has been used to defend / protect. The whole point of carrying a kirpan is for that reason.
Imo as its never been used for good why not just carry a symbol of the kirpan. They don't need an actual blade. Sikh gentleman at my work is nice enough but always gets his out to show it off and harps on about thw training he's had but he doesn't look very trained when he's jumping about with it.

How could this incident have been averted otherwise Mrs P? Any wiser ideas? One?

If they’re not allowed to carry religious blades in prison for health and safety reasons, then well DUH, why let them carry them in public then?!

The point is we have one section telling immigrant cultures, be you and wear you proudly - and the other section saying lets deport them all , never let them in

I would rather middle ground - come in with skill sets, investments, student fees, that will enrich our economy and our nation - but ONLY COME if you really want to integrate into British culture and British pride and a British way of life. I dont see why people migrate otherwise. Anyway thats just me and I am non white and not British by birth but by naturalisation after coming in on a highly skilled migrant worker visa

Yes this sounds really good

I worked in a fishmonger counter at a supermarket as a teen.
The fishmonger bought his own knives (supermarket ones were not good) and carried them in a knife roll, which he put at the bottom of his bag. He explained that his responsibility was to keep them out of grab range. Also, he would sometimes leave them in locker at work if he was going to pub, but he didn't like to do that as they were expensive.
So that's a sensible way to manage work knives.

Waiting for the trial. For experiencd experts to do reports. For psychologiss, social workers, mental health workers to weigh in.

Neither your reckons, nor mine, will be a silver bullet.

I'm clever enough to know I'm not informed enough. You don't seem to be.

What?
The OP asked a question; I answered it.

A lot of the people who enriched our economy and our country got off boats, or planes later with very little going for them in your terms of being "highly skilled" but did manage to make many valuable contributions. All sorts of races and cultures and religions, often a bit lost when they landed.

You came in 2007, you've said that yourself. You appear to be more exclusive in your take on this than eg me, who is about as white British as it gets (I've done the family history) Why? What does 'British' mean apart from following the rule of law and paying your taxes?

I think that Digwa's religion is irrelevant. He is clearly the kind of young man who is violent and would get his hands on some kind of blade regardless.

Responsible and law abiding gun owners lock up their weapons.
My ceremonial knives are stored safely, unlike my legal huge carving knives, cleavers, saws, hammers, etc.

As I have said before, people kill people, not a knife or a gun.
Or ropes, hammers, golf clubs, tights, chain saws, etc.
Shall we licence pillows, which can be used to smother people?

All the bans and restrictions on handguns, various blades, shotguns, whatever, will be observed by law abiding, non violent people and ignored by criminals and violent people, who will be able to obtain any weapon they want on the black market.
Hasty, knee jerk legislation is invariably bad law.

It would be better to concentrate on how we are socialising our NEET young people and being more discriminating about the people to whom we open our borders.

Yabu. Someone backpacking on a bus to festival say . Has a knife to chop with when preparing food.

Sikhs in this country are law-abiding and peaceful. The horrendous murder of Henry Nowak was a one off. The murderer was a racist and a liar, certainly not representative of the Sikh community.
But the 'two-tier' policing debate is causing much resentment here.
So the 'no knives' rule should not allow exceptions, especially when alternatives can be used, as in miniature, blunt symbols, rather than actual knives.