Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

[Ihatetomatoes]

New report says political badges such as Pro Palestine shouldn't be worn on NHS uniforms. It's led to increased antisemitism and fear amongst Jewish patients.

Also NHS uniforms not to be worn on protests.

This report makes a number of suggestions and in my opinion must be implemented. All political badges off NHS uniforms. No NHS uniforms on protests such as pro Palestine. It contributes to racism and fear.

The NHS should treat all patients equally and individuals political opinions shouldn't be pinned on their uniforms.

No because unless they knew her how would they know that was her husbands name
and it doesn’t indicate if she was married to a man or a woman that’s on you presuming that

I agree. Seems pretty simple. Professional at work, no.pins.

In personal life cover yourself in flags, pins, lanyards, scarfs, whatever.

@ErroltheSwampDragon
I don't know why you're finding it so hard to understand that the same laws of expression are exactly why doctors are also allowed to wear LGBT lanyards or pins. You then tried to say well it will be a blanket ban on all flags in a hospital and I explained to you realistically what that would mean given how many flags are displayed for different reasons. I'm saying she doesn't care to listen or engage about the others, because every time I've brought them up no one including PP has given me an answer - if a patient has a genuine trigger over someone wearing a hijab does that justify restricting the right to wear one? No even though the patient now according to them cannot access healthcare. I'm genuinely asking what you suggest as a solution in that example? How could they be supported to attend and why when it's a religious items does the solution have to differ?

Well any patient who knew her before and after would know that by becoming Mrs and changing her name she is most likely straight and can assume so. I don't know many lesbians in my circle who have ever adopted Mrs along with a change of name. So I may assume wrong sure, just as you're assuming an LGBT pin declares the person as what exactly? Gay? Bisexual? Or just someone who has people close to them who are LGBT or maybe they're just wearing it.

Its not hard to understand, your interpretation of the law is just incorrect. It is very clear in the law that your workplace can enforce a uniform and ban certain items. A limited number of exceptions exist for based on items such a religious clothing. A flag pin is not included (irrespective of which flag it is).

No flag displayed in a hospital is required for medical reasons. Someone put them up, someone can take them down.

The solution has to differ when its a religious item (specific religious items not ones vaguely linked to a religion) because that's what the law says. The NHS balances the needs of the patient and the worker (two conflicting needs). We're not talking about two conflciting needs, we're talking about prioritising a want over a need.

So you're completely circling back to the same point I already responded to you on, which is these items are currently already allowed which is a much different legal perspective when it comes to banning them which is not just my opinion, judge also agreed it could be very sticky. You say "take the flags down" so you can again completely ignore the reasons I gave you of why you may see flags in a hospital and I guarantee you no organisation, especially one as large as the NHS, wants to now change the rules and ban staff heritage days or military staffs remembrance memorials because their flag will cause offense. That's going to be very easily challenged as possible discrimination.

I'm asking you for about the third time to tell me what the solution is when it's a religious item please? We can't ban it, so how do we support the patient to attend?

You also keep presenting things as wants in a way that is completely dismissing the reasons people wear them so you don't have to engage in any nuance on the discussion. I know it would be simpler if you really could categorise people into bad hateful people because they wear a pin, but it's actually also pretty insulting to HCPs who by nature of their job are not deliberately trying to hurt anyone and in many cases are devastated that their own HCP colleagues, some of whom are family, have been killed while trying to save people's lives, they'll also have many patients who may find attending appointments triggering thinking how their own loved one was murdered in a gazan hospital. You'll still come back and say that's a simple ' selfish want' but I don't think being so black and white really helps anyone.

But who has said anything about a religious item? I am not triggered by a hijab. Religion isn't the same as nationality. And the vast majority of Palestinian flag wavers aren't actually Palestinian anyway. Are you saying people should be restricted to represent things they actually are because that's somehow protected?

There is literally no reason the NHS can't - tomorrow - say 'we are aligning with the other NHS services who already have this rule. You have a uniform. You cannot add random stuff to it.'

There is no religion in the entire world that says anyone needs to wear a pin. There are plenty of jobs that require a uniform. It's in no way discrimination to say 'wear your scrubs, wear your hijab, wear comfy black shoes, the end'.

You say HCP 'by their nature aren't trying to hurt anyone' so... if they are indeed hurting ME then that's still true. Whatever the intent was is irrelevant. Just like lots of other times in history when people thought one thing about a choice or a rule or a law and then it turned out that was a terrible idea - people can learn from their mistakes. It might have seemed kinder to allow NHS staff to wear these pins and badges, now we are learning it's not an inherent good so we can just... change it? Just like we changed many, many things in the past.

Gosh at one point we thought black and white people should go to different schools! We figured that one out - because despite some people preferring the status quo, it wasn't more important than supporting the move of society in a better direction.

It's a very odd argument to say 'we have to keep doing this because that's what we are doing'.

You're not saying that but other patients are. I'm simply asking you for a solution when you can't ban the item? I've explained on detail multiple times why I think patient care and support and accomodating patient requests have a better outcome but you disagree this will work for your concerns, only a ban so I'm asking how you suggest we support patients in the same predicament where the item can't be banned?

And the vast majority of Palestinian flag wavers aren't actually Palestinian anyway.
This seems a pretty baseless assumption unless what you're doing is merging doctors who wear a pin with "flag wavers" in the street when you have no actual data or reason to show why that is? There are many doctors with family is Palestine and other countries that have been dragged into the conflict over this time, plus having colleagues who have volunteered with MSF so even if they may not be Palestinian they may feel aligned to that. It doesn't really matter though because it's apparently all patient assumption that matters.

There is literally no reason the NHS can't - tomorrow - say 'we are aligning with the other NHS services who already have this rule. You have a uniform. You cannot add random stuff to it.'

So you'll just ignore all the context I gave you of why this might be sticky given many of the items you want to ban are encouraged and even provided by the employer to staff networks as part of diversity initiatives etc. so no it's not that simple for a large diverse organisation to say "we're not doing remembrance day" or "we're not doing black history month anymore" because some may patients find your origin offensive.

Gosh at one point we thought black and white people should go to different schools! We figured that one out - because despite some people preferring the status quo, it wasn't more important than supporting the move of society in a better direction.

I don't see what this has to do with your point tbh. The status quo very much was based on people discomfort being around black people being prioritised and black people were therefore excluded. You're gonna have to reach very very hard to try and paint the push to ban signs of diversity and inclusion on as somehow akin to the push for civil rights and anti racism 🤨

I've never proposed banning religious items and have responded several times on this already. My view is the NHS needs to follow the law. At present religions have specific protections that other beliefs do not (because those beliefs don't require you to wear something). If you would like to challenge the legal principle and think you can demonstrate wearing a pin is fundamental to your beliefs, please go ahead, but I don't think it has been demonstrated on this thread for any symbol.

I keep bringing up the wants because it is a critical point. I don't think someone who chooses to wear a pin or flag is a bad person. Nor do I think it makes you a good person. Each symbol is worn for a myriad of reasons, personal to the wearer. Some good, some bad.

Evidence has been found that these items are having a negative impact users, particularly one minority. Continuing to wear them when this has been identified is a choice to place your desire to wear a pin (however admirable the intent behind it is) over others health needs and I do question where this is the action of someone that doesn't wish to cause harm.

My view is the NHS needs to follow the law.

The law as it stands is they are allowed to wear these ?

Evidence has been found that these items are having a negative impact users, particularly one minority. Continuing to wear them when this has been identified is a choice to place your desire to wear a pin (however admirable the intent behind it is) over others health needs and I do question where this is the action of someone that doesn't wish to cause harm.

I don't understand why you can't answer a simple question. There are other items we cannot ban that have the same negative impact on users - how do we resolve it in view of the fact we can't ban the items? And how is this solution completely incompatible with the negative impact caused by flags or LGBT lanyards?

Continuing to wear them when this has been identified is a choice to place your desire to wear a pin (however admirable the intent behind it is) over others health needs and I do question where this is the action of someone that doesn't wish to cause harm.

I think you're massively extrapolating from a news article and a couple of posts on Mumsnet to actual patient feedback or trust complaints. I agree if a patient has actually particularly complained about a doctor and the impact it had on them, they need to reflect and adjust accordingly but I don't think HCPs who receive excellent patient feedback from all their diverse patients is "someone that wishes to cause harm" because they won't act on the opinion of anonymous forum. I also think given the unprecedented killings of healthcare workers suggesting those who mourn and stand in solidarity with them and work in a profession that really has no other benefits except helping people (working conditions, money etc is awful) is in pretty bad taste. People can hold nuanced different opinions, it doesn't mean you have to accuse them of "wishing to cause harm" which is quite a low blow and unevidenced.

The law as it stands is that religious dress cannot be banned unless it is can be demonstrated to be incompatible with the role. Other than that companies are free to impose dress restrictions as they like.

What I think you are asking is you can't ban religious items, even though some people object to them, how can you argue other items should be banned just because people object to them too? I have answered this numerous times. If that's not what you're asking, please rephrase.

I'm extrapolating from a comprehensive report and years of news reports covering this. You cannot pretend that all health care workers are virtuous purely because of the job they have chosen to do. There have been instances of racists, terror supporters, abusers, and murderers, all working for the NHS. Therefore, its perfectly reasonable to assume not everyone in the NHS has completely pure intentions, they're all human after all, and when someone says they're going to ignore patients who are telling them they feel too unsafe to access care because they don't want to change their behaviour, I question this too.

I work for the NHS and have never seen a colleague wearing a political badge or lanyard.

Just to be clear though OP, thinking Netanyahu and the Israeli government are a bunch of war mongering shits doesn't make a person anti Semitic. It is based on the actions of Netanyahu and his cronies. I have zero problem with Jewish people. Michael Rose and other prominent Jews have also spoken against the Israeli government. I also think Trump is an absolute cunt if that helps.