Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

[Ihatetomatoes]

New report says political badges such as Pro Palestine shouldn't be worn on NHS uniforms. It's led to increased antisemitism and fear amongst Jewish patients.

Also NHS uniforms not to be worn on protests.

This report makes a number of suggestions and in my opinion must be implemented. All political badges off NHS uniforms. No NHS uniforms on protests such as pro Palestine. It contributes to racism and fear.

The NHS should treat all patients equally and individuals political opinions shouldn't be pinned on their uniforms.

It isn't discrimination if applied to all equally as per the law.

I've agreed it won't be easy but you vere between saying its not practical and saying its not necessary, they are not the same thing. This action is necessary.

An NHS trust celebrating Hannukah does not make me feel safer if my doctor is wearing a pro-Palestinian badge. I'd rather neither.

It's also worth remembering HCPs and everyone who works on healthcare are patients too. It's not two completely seperate groups, most people work on the community they live in and are accessing the same services they work in, are they as patients not allowed to appreciate the hospital showing they support them as a Jewish patient in ways they support or does it only matter for patients that don't appreciate it?

You don't see any benefit in that doctor being part of a multi faith network and celebrating with their Jewish colleagues? You think demanding that doesn't happen will actually foster a better community?

But its not a lack of appreciation its fear to the point of people not getting the help they need. Its prioritising a want (to wear a pin) over a need (accessing healthcare) and those choosing the want have the power and are holding it over those with the need.

Why on earth do I, as a patient or colleague, need to know who a Dr or Nurse likes to fuck? Or how they feel about who other people like to fuck? Because quite frankly, that’s all the rainbow lanyard crap is.

No thanks. Keep your religion, sexuality and politics out of public services. If you want to express yourself, do it on your own time and at your own expense.

How a HCP celebrates with their colleagues is irrelevant to patients and does not need to be signalled to them

Staff members of any organisation can join whatever they like. Jewish doctors who like Star Trek. Brunette dentists who like Taylor swift. Whatever. That’s their choice and for them to decide when and how to engage with it. They also shouldn’t hand me a flyer or get me involved as a patient. Nor should they wave a flag in my face. I have no choice about if I should engage with them.

Anecdotally I am not part of a Jewish or multi faith organisation through my work. Totally my choice to engage or not.

I understand that but there's ways to support a minority of patients requests over genuine fear they have of accessing healthcare and still maintain staffs right to expression within the rules of the organisation they work for. A patient with a specific PTSD trigger is an important thing to be noted in a patients referral to access healthcare and can be accommodated. I just don't think it's reasonable or practical to enact a policy that will affect all of the NHS necessary diversity initiatives and that a lot of patients when there are other ways to support the minority of patients you're talking about.

I didn't say they'll be handing you a flyer. I mean that patients may see for example the multifaith groups minora lighting celebration on the premises when they're there. Or the may use the hospital canteen during black pride month and see flags or any number of events where they'll see members of staff from all backgrounds learning about and celebrating eachother. These initiatives have a factual benefit to cohesion amongst different groups and help staff provide better care to patients from different backgrounds. A hospital serves the entire community and is always going to reflect that, I don't see the cost to benefit ratio pointing towards ignoring and banning all signs of diversity.

I don't think it's irrelevant that these networks provide necessary and beneficial learning which improves patient care and put on events where patients and staff from the community get to know eachother from all different backgrounds. I also don't agree with the assumption that all signs of diversity in a hospital are signalling, you can ban all of it from the NHS side if you want but if the issue is someone genuinely can't access a hospital if they see a pride flag or a Palestinian flag then that can't be guaranteed from a patient side either.

But not to support minorities? You're happy for specific minorities to be intimidated in favour of staff's desire (its not a right at work) to express their views?

Funnily, society got to a point, not that long ago, where we thought that if a cost was unfairly burdened by one minority group but benefited the majority, we still wouldn't accept it because its a form of discrimination.

I’ve said many times but can say again. It is entirely and completely different to be surrounded by other patients wearing whatever pins and shirts and keffiyehs they like and being surrounded by doctors and nurses wearing the same. I do not need to respect or engage with other patients, I do need my children to feel safe with doctors and nurses and teachers.

But this, again, ignores the power imbalance which has been flagged. Another patient doesn't have power over a patient, NHS staff do.

The thing is they will have been given lgbt badges from their own work inclusivity team, then there are the sen support badges to be an alli there, before you know it you end up full of badges so when someone offers you accept.

i agree they shouldn’t be allowed but then you would have to stop them all including poppy’s

I have literally no idea what hospitals you’re going to. Any experience I’ve had in the hospital is showing up, having a group of lovely people help me or my children, and going home. I’m saying in an emergency situation, where I am scared and in pain, being approached by someone wearing a Palestinian flag will be inherently frightening. For me, for my children, for other people for other flags. If I’m in the hospital long enough to join the staff parties I’m sure I’ll have had enough time to remember to ignore it. Front line nhs patients dealing with vulnerable and frightened people should not have the right to make them feel worse.

My children’s anxiety about this will not be on their nhs record, what an odd thing to suggest. They don’t have diagnosed PTSD, they are scared after some horrific bullying by pro Palestinian children. They are worried after watching the police show up at our synagogue and seeing the news of the shootings and stabbings and fires. This isn’t some illogical fear of spiders or monsters that I should try to work them through. I can’t tell them that people waving Palestinian flags don’t wish them harm because - as they’ve experienced - that’s simply not always true.

You don't need a pin to do any of that.

announcing your sexuality just seems performative the that’s what most people object to about the rainbow lanyard

practically everyone ether doesn’t care ir isn’t remotely interested

If they cannot enter a room with the patient there then I disagree, which is what PP has suggested. I do understand the power balance between a HCP and patient, but you're refusing to examine the logic behind your argument. If it's about being unable to access healthcare are if they see a flag, that's still an issue then so how do you suggest it's resolved?

It's always LGBT people "announcing their sexuality". Is a consultant who just changed her title and surname to Mrs Husbandsname announcing hers or?

Not engaging in any of the relevant facts about these initiatives just makes you look deliberately contrarian without logic. Doesn't matter about the overall outcome just ban the pines, got it. That will fix absolutely everything I'm sure.

I'm not refusing to examine the logic at all. You are misrepresenting my comments, deliberately or otherwise, to deflect from what I've said, while avoiding responding to my actual comments about the power imbalance. I'm not aware of any PPs that have said seeing another patient with a flag would prevent them accessing healthcare, whereas a flag displayed by a healthcare worker would.

Simply, my logic is:

1. Healthcare workers have power over their patients
2. The needs of a patient take priority over the wants of the healthcare workers
3. Displaying a symbol which may prevent someone getting the help they need, is an abuse of power based on the prioritisation of the healthcare works wants over the patients needs
4. Therefore, the symbols should be banned.

What have I misrepresented? I've engaged in good faith with every point and offered back the real world situation of the NHS policy and asked realistically how this can be implemented with rights competing against eachother. Even now you're saying the symbol should be banned when I've asked what we do when the symbol is still present in the hospital outside of staffs control therefore patient still unable to access care due to trauma.

It needs to be banned ON STAFF. I don’t think there’s anyone who would fade into some sort of 1800s hysteria at the site of a random person wearing whatever they are wearing. It’s super simple and I don’t understand the confusion here.

If I was going to faint every time I walked past a Palestinian flag or a self satisfied keffiyeh wearer I would have died of starvation years ago. I still would feel frightened to have ambulance driver, police officer or teacher wearing one while at work. Because they have the power over me and that’s already unsettling.

Actually, I believe that is already the rule for ambulance drivers who are NHS staff so there’s an easy precedent and existing policy.

when operating as private citizens and in their own time, nhs staff as as welcome as police staff, teachers, airplane pilots or I am to wave a banner, wear whatever, engage in any sort of legal activity or hate whoever they like. While at work, isn’t not about them - it’s about their clients and patients and customers.

Sorry if I misread but you said if your daughter encountered a flag at a hospital she would have to run out? We also need to circle back around to the fact that there are many other patients who will feel th exact same about items that can't be banned such as hijabs and kippahs being worn by someone with power over them. What I'm suggesting is that those patients concerns should be taken seriously and extra support and care provided to them and a HCP of their choosing. You don't seem to care about any patients triggers but your own and what to enact a policy that doesn't actually offer solutions. Just as you want to completely overlook the diversity initiatives which actually may or could give you hope that the Muslim doctor you see wearing a small Palestine pin isn't a hateful person who wants to harm Jewish people as you keep asserting (and then saying actually don't mean harm or hurt despite saying clearly you did mean unsafe care and physical harm) so you're really just stuck in your opinion and not open to engage in good faith with the reasons why someone might be against this initiative to ban them even while supporting patient concerns.

This is the exact misrepresentation I referred to earlier. You take a point made about a healthcare worker and query how it relates to a patient. It doesn't.

The point made about the hjiab and kippah has been answered previously - they are protected by law, a flag pin is not. An NHS initiative obviously does not have the same grounds as a law, the NHS can choose to change its initiatives, it can't change the law.

Its unfair to accuse @PurpleThistle7 of not caring about other triggers, she's giving her personal experience but hasn't propsed only the Palestinian flag should be banned, but that all symbols that might cause distress are.

She has also not ignored the diversity initiatives but rather has clearly explained why they have no bearing on the impact of the symbols and are not an adequate mitigation.

You refer to the initiatives giving her hope that even if a doctor was wearing a "small Palestine pin" they might not mean her harm. This minimises the trauma her children have endured and is, frankly, incredibly dismissive of patients. Why on earth should we have to be hopeful that those treating us don't want to hurt us? This is an expectation.

Engaging in good faith goes both ways and while statements have been made about the opposition to the ban, I haven't seen one that honestly reflects upon the impact the symbols are having on their patients. Its either a lack of care (want over need) or not believing them (denying the impact).