Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

[Ihatetomatoes]

New report says political badges such as Pro Palestine shouldn't be worn on NHS uniforms. It's led to increased antisemitism and fear amongst Jewish patients.

Also NHS uniforms not to be worn on protests.

This report makes a number of suggestions and in my opinion must be implemented. All political badges off NHS uniforms. No NHS uniforms on protests such as pro Palestine. It contributes to racism and fear.

The NHS should treat all patients equally and individuals political opinions shouldn't be pinned on their uniforms.

How is someone being openly LGBT not conductive to them doing their job though? Do you really not see how that could be a very dangerous stance for an organisation to take that currently embraces inclusion and diversity?

Because its not about you and your personality when you are at work. You are there to do the job you are being paid for.

That's not right though, HCPs aren't stripped of their beliefs hence they're allowed to refuse to do certain procedures.

At no point have I called you anything. My comments were regarding groups of people. I don’t know you and have no reason to throw personal insults at you. I’m sure you are great at your job.

It’s ironic that you take my opinion of a group of people personally, almost like when people wear badges supporting one side of a political argument make the other side uncomfortable.

If you no longer wish me to engage then the easiest way is to stop replying to me.

I don't think the argument is against being openly LGBT, its about the symbol, which others have pointed out it not seen as welcoming to all parties (some don't like the version with trans included as they feel its linked to the erasure of sex-based rights, others find the previous version excludes trans people).

Well in fairness you keep replying to me. I said I don't want to engage because I think once you already think anyone who thinks differently to you is a twat then you aren't really engaging in discussion or open to listening to people's views, if you are so keen to keep chatting to me personally I can't stop you.

.’ It’s ironic that you take my opinion of a group of people personally, almost like when people wear badges supporting one side of a political argument make the other side uncomfortable.’

Exactly

Yeah but if you're an organisation who has supplied everyone with LGBT lanyards, has an LGBT staff network.and now you need to change the rules then ofc you're going to get pushback form LGBT staff that banning anything that is identifiable as being not conductive to work is implying being openly LGBT isn't conductive to their work.so I'm asking how you think that would be done that won't be open to staff feeling discriminated against? Especially when other symbols that aren't conducive to work are to still be allowed? If a legal judge had the same concern, I'm not pulling this from nowhere and I'm surprised you're so confident it can be done.

@Anarchy99 @BrownTroutBluesAgain you'll also notice I use my words to express what I'm comfortable with. I haven't a really policed anarchy on what she's allowed to post...

@BrownTroutBluesAgain did you have an answer for this?

I have never refused to allow anyone to help me. I haven’t refused to allow my son to be taught by a Muslim teacher. I haven’t pulled my kids from classes where they discuss current events or boycotts or whoever’s marathon fundraiser for Palestine. I have always, always told my children that we are guests here and we need to stay quiet to stay safe. And I wouldn’t refuse to be treated by a flag waving whoever. But I wouldn’t want to be there, my kids would be scared / crying / hiding / whatever and I would do everything in my power to get out of there as quickly as possible. So my care would be compromised and it would be your fault.

We obviously aren’t ever going to agree here. I’m telling you that you’re hurting me and you’re telling me I shouldn’t be hurt or perhaps that I should somehow tell my children to stop being frightened of something that has been used to harass and intimidate them. I don’t know how to tell them not to be scared - they aren’t making it up, they have had multiple incidents of this flag being used to scare them. And the symbol might have originally meant something else and the bigots might have co-opted it and everything else people are saying is probably true - but it’s also true that many people use this situation to hurt Jewish people and for now, a place filled with Palestinian flags is not a place for me.

Look I'm very very sorry, because it really sounds like you've been through a lot, and I'm heartbroken you feel like a guest here when that's not true.

We obviously aren’t ever going to agree here. I’m telling you that you’re hurting me

I take issue with this though. I'm not hurting you? I don't even have a Palestinian pin. While I understand you obviously feel very distressed I'm not hurting you and making you feel that way and members of the publicly feel this strongly about any number of things, provided the staff member is acting professionally, they're not hurting/harming you. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but you need to maybe use your words more clearly such as "this distressed me because X" rather than saying an individual is actively harming you without any actions or intent. It's causing a lot of confusion when you keep saying people will harm you and then saying people are misinterpreting this as you meaning they will harm you.

I'm not saying that things like the network should be banned, nor am I saying it would be easily. Purely logistically, it would be difficult, but that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.

I presume there is a guide on what people can wear already (which probably covers religious dress) so that should be expanded and more awareness raised about the indirect harm people might be causing patients. At the same time, a process should be established (if not already) for staff to request exemptions.

Yeah but the guide currently allows you to express things, so I'm wondering what the wording would be to justify removing it. It's clearly not an easy thing and it's already been suggested legally it is going to have issues especially for protected characteristics such as sexuality.

But the point is they are not acting professionally by wearing a pin that causes fear in the patients and as a result hinders them from accessing the care they need.

I'm not sure lumping the LGBT flag and Palestinian pins together has helped clarify the discussion, because from what I've seen you're quite focused on defending the right to wear the LGBT lanyard, where @PurpleThistle7 has been specifically discussing the Palestinian flag.

You mentioned previously that lesbians may prefer to be treated by lesbians in some instances which I can understand but wearing a lanyard feels like a clumsy way to achieve this, while also risking making others uncomfortable.

On the Palestinian badge though, I can't see any positive like this and there is a well evidenced negative impact on Jewish patients.

But the point is they are not acting professionally by wearing a pin that causes fear in the patients and as a result hinders them from accessing the care they need.

Yet whenever I point out that many things may cause fear or discomfort in patients you won't tell me how exactly we're going to ban them all.

I'm not sure lumping the LGBT flag and Palestinian pins together has helped clarify the discussion,
I know it's easier if we exclude all other context and make it very black and white on one badge, but it doesn't work that way.

On the Palestinian badge though, I can't see any positive like this and there is a well evidenced negative impact on Jewish patients.
And some Jewish doctors who wear the pin feel differently.

It's complex!

That the evidence has come to light that the current policy risks creating health inequalities by hindering the access of some patients to the care they need. The NHS has a longstanding precedent of trying to address health inequalities, this is no different.

If the policy changed to ban you speaking about being LGBT or being LGBT, that would be discriminatory but there is no LGBT requirement to wear a lanyard, in the same way there is no requirement for someone straight to wear one.

You're still not explaining how an organisation that has embraced the LGBT lanyard as part of uniform for years is going to word removing it without seeming to be explicitly discriminating? Especially as that's an example of one that has improved health inequalities also.

I honestly don't understand what you mean when you say I haven't told you how exactly we're going to ban them all.

I've told you the current legal precedent, the logic behind current exemptions (religious etc.) and how new ones can be considered, explained that it wouldn't be discriminatory because its not targeting one group or making one group less equal, discussed existing NHS policy, proposed alternative ways of addressing health inequalities, and explained the justification behind the ban. I've agreed the logistics are complicated and suggested some steps to take. I'm not sure what else you would like me to say?

Please don't throw the fact that some Jews are Pro-Palestinian in our faces when we are telling you that they cause harm to others. We aren't a homogenous group and the Pro-Palestinian movement has been associated with a huge increase in antisemitism. Irrespective of whether an individual wearing a symbol is themselves antisemitic, the association is still there. I would not argue a Pro-Israel pin would be acceptable in a hospital because I recognise that it would make some people uncomfortable and possibly unwilling to seek help and that would be unfair on those patients.

Because you keep saying items of personal belief have to be allowed without explaining how this isn't open to allowing items related to all beliefs which is exactly the legal issue that's already been proposed.

Please don't throw the fact that some Jews are Pro-Palestinian symbols in our faces when we are telling you that they cause harm to others. We aren't a homogenous group
I'm not throwing it your face by pointing out the exact point that Jewish people are a homogenous group and that there is a Jewish doctor arguing against the ban publicly. To say that a Jewish person wearing a pin makes them anti-Semitic isn't fair. It's a massively complex issue hence why I agree that staff and patients are entitled to their beliefs and the main thing is that behaviour is up to standard,.without reducing staffs rights.

Feel free to if it helps.

We have legally established items which are exempt. If you don't like this, then you need to challenge the law, not me, but in terms of the NHS taking action now, it can do so in line with the current legal precedent. You're right in that some beliefs (primarily religious) are given more weight than others in our legal system, in regards to what people wear.

I didn't say wearing the pin made them antisemitic, I explicitly said the opposite. However, the association of antisemitism with the symbol is still there. Yes, people are entitled to their beliefs, but their behaviour includes what they wear and wearing something you know will cause others distress is not a right.

If it's not obvious enough, I don't think policing people is a good idea nor do I think making blanket assumptions about people is helpful 😉 I think using respectful actions and words matter most.

Would it help if I said it ‘hurts my feelings’? I have been super clear there’s no physical hurt on my part, only my daughter’s.

The hate marches and bullying and the physical attacks on her at school were all started with someone waving the Palestinian flag. And my children are being targeted only because we are Jewish. My children have never even been to Israel. So the ‘hurt’ is that many, many people around us at work and school and literally everywhere will prioritise their need to show whoever their solidarity over making any of us feel safe. And I’m very intensely aware that there are dozens of us and thousands of them so I don’t have any sort of say over any of it.

All I can do in this entire situation is remind people these protests and flags and pins and all of it isn’t innately or entirely good. It makes some people feel better or seen or part of something, but it makes a teeny tiny group of people feel lonely, exhausted and scared.

This is a circular argument between abuse you keep refusing to acknowledge the multitude of things allowed that will also cause upset and offense in patients and how we are going to get into policing people's hair, tattoos etc . I'm not talking about the legal system as a whole, I know many private companies already have a very strict dress code. I'm talking about the NHS which already allows these things and trying to restrict it is a much trickier issue when employees have plenty of evidence of being able.to do their job to a high standard while wearing X for example. It's perfectly possible for a patient to be offended by something that wasn't intended to offend, you cannot therefore easily discipline the staff member for wearing something their policy allows just because a patient found it offensive when it's not obviously offensive to everyone. Someone with a phobia of spiders could find someone's spider tattoo offensive, doesn't mean you can discipline the staff member for intending to offend.