Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

[Ihatetomatoes]

New report says political badges such as Pro Palestine shouldn't be worn on NHS uniforms. It's led to increased antisemitism and fear amongst Jewish patients.

Also NHS uniforms not to be worn on protests.

This report makes a number of suggestions and in my opinion must be implemented. All political badges off NHS uniforms. No NHS uniforms on protests such as pro Palestine. It contributes to racism and fear.

The NHS should treat all patients equally and individuals political opinions shouldn't be pinned on their uniforms.

Irrelevant doesn't mean they should be banned though surely. I don't have any military family so a poppy is irrelevant to me personally, but it's not harmful to me. Is irrelevance harmful to you in some way?

I don't think any views should be signalled. Your patients aren't there to hear your views

The only exception would be something directly relevant to the nhs remit, like a pin to promote breast cancer screening or similar.

Actually I'm from Northern Ireland originally and the poppy is a politically loaded symbol to many nationalists there. You don't know how people will react to what you're wearing, you may not understand the wider context. So what's so hard about not wearing it at work?

So what if the Darlington nurses then? Should they not have been given any media attention to their views or been publicised in their uniforms? I'm still not understanding what harm for example a BAME pin can do to someone it's irrelevant to that's so much worse than the benefit it may have to a BAME maternity patient who may feel more confident that the HCP understood that statistically she could face worse outcomes and is probably educated on how to advocate for her better?

The workplace ( unless you are an MP ) is NOT the place to proclaim your. political views of any persuasion

Well I'd fire you if you persisted in that approach.

Wear what you want in your own time but when you are in any normal workplace an employer can make reasonable rules about that. TBF 99pc of employees wouldn't even need this pointing out to them in the private sector

In the public sector poor management has led to this being more but wrongly prevalent.

I'm from.northern Ireland too, it doesn't make people a monolith. I lost family in the troubles but I don't have strong feelings to someone wearing a poppy. If I did, I could ask to see someone else. What's the logic for banning it given you haven't explained any actual harm it does? And you also haven't explained how we would apply a ban to poppies and badges that wouldn't somehow extend to cultural items and other types of personal expression. In face where does personal expression end. Can a nurse have blue hair or would you ban it given assumptions about people's social opinions who have blue hair? Where's the line?

But they're not currently against the uniform policy of the organisation these people work for so what's the issue? Some companies will also fire you for wearing trainers, it doesn't mean other organisations don't have different uniform policies.

Who said they shouldn't have media attention?

That's not the same as wearing a pin at work. When they're working I expect these nurses to be concentrating on their patients, not talking about their case.

The problem is once you start allowing some kinds of pins at work, where do you draw the line? If patients don't want to see these pins, who decides whether their reaction is legitimate or not?

As they aren't relevant to your role, leave them at home. Wear them to your hearts content outside of work.

You may not have strong feelings, but plenty of people do.

Why put them through the process of having to ask for someone else? Just wear your poppy on your own time.

Employers can, of course, have differing workplace policies. I am not breaking any policies, rules or laws. For me a badge opposing war and supporting human rights will never be is evidence of unprofessional conduct. The test is whether someone does their job properly and treats people fairly, not whether they remain silent about injustice.
History is full of people who were told to keep their views to themselves when speaking out against discrimination, apartheid, war, or inequality made others uncomfortable. That doesn’t mean they were wrong to do so.
If your position is that compassion, peace, and concern for civilian suffering should only be expressed in private, then we simply have very different ideas about what public service and humanity look like.

Nor me. It's completely inappropriate. Patients dont need to know your political opinions at work, its completely irrelevant

But they surely could have had media attention for the case that didn't include identifying them personally as HCPs in their uniform, so now all patients who see them will know their views. By your logic, what if some patients feel this makes them uncomfortable?
Many HCPs could argue that their pins are relevant to the community they serve so that's okay by your logic then? I.e..wearing a BAME pin as a maternity worker in an area with a large BAME community, or in a clinic that may have many LGBT patients, is that ok?

I haven't suggested banning any pins, I actually asked you wearing the line is on banning things and yet somehow you're flipping the question to where's my line on what's not allowed when I haven't suggested that. Please don't go down Peters route creating strawman examples.

As for patients reactions I already said patients.dont need to "react" to the pin any more than they should react to someone's race, sex etc. while you can request care from anyone, you shouldn't be rude in reacting to the person you'd rather not see just ask to see someone else.

They are paid by the public purse. They should do their work without showing any political affiliations.
This should not even be a conversation.
Medical staff years ago did not waft about wearing political badges. Thank goodness. They can take them off.

@Fancythatfancyhat I think they should be against the uniform policy!

It doesn't really matter what the subjective view of the wearer is if there is a risk of confusion or perceived conflict being caused to the person being dealt with. It's just so unnecessary and virtue signalling.

I'd make an exception about red poppies in November (although recognising they too bring issues especially in NI) although I can see that might be inconsistent although I'd think it a shame if we can't pay tribute to those who fought and died for the life we have now

No of course not. Well I have no idea really. But it's almost impossible to get an appointment, weeks to wait and a lot of arguing to see anyone so I couldn't just 'request' another person. I'd just have to call back the next day and try again and hope someone else is working. If I'm in an accident and wake up to find someone standing there, I can't just tell them to go away. It's just an odd thing to suggest, like I have any choice in the people who look after me in an emergency so it's my fault if I don't feel safe with them.

By what logic though? If we have an LGBT company network what's the logic of banning LGBT lanyards exactly? "Perceived conflict" is what exactly? It strikes me as a bit ironic that people offended by pins have to "perceived conflict" that isn't actually there in the interaction while at the same time saying a pin is "virtue signalling" as in the person doesn't even really believe in the cause they're wearing a pin for - so is there conflict or not? 😂 And what exactly is virtue signalling? If I'm one of only a few in a team that doesn't wear any badges am I virtue signalling signalling to you a message about why I'm not wearing them?

It really sounds like a lot of opposition to pins and badges in overthinking and creating a situation our of assumptions in your head, and if it's so irrelevant to you I wonder why it's front and centre of your mind instead of the health issue you need attending to, apparently so much so you can't even make a request for you who would rather see.

To me, the message of the red poppy isn’t simply remembrance—it’s also remembering why remembrance matters. We honour those who suffered and died in war so that such horrors are not repeated.
That’s why I see opposing genocide, ethnic cleansing, and the mass killing of civilians as entirely consistent with the values the poppy represents. Remembering past atrocities while remaining silent about present ones would miss the point of remembrance altogether. But that’s just the view of lil ol’ me.

So to clarify what exactly is the HCP who is attending to you in this emergency where you wake up going to do that will be so harmful sorry? I'm very confused. And it's only the badge with a Palestine flag that means they hold those views does it? You wouldn't assume a Palestinian doctor who didn't wear a badge is somehow going to harm you...? It sounds like you're projecting a lot of bad intentions onto a nationality and I'm not sure why. By this logic, is it okay for a Palestinian patient to assume someone wearing a Kippur to signal they're Jewish is someone guaranteed to harm them or would you think they're being discriminatory there?

ETA, especially given this is healthcare and the example you used is someone helping you in a first aid situation where's the leap to assuming they mean you harm? Surely the easiest way to harm you would be by not assisting you ..

I do not think pro-Palestinian = anti-Jewish. I am saying that for me and my family, the fear we experience is intrinsically linked to this flag right now. People waving it around can be lovely people, but they can also be terrifying. They can be the sort of person who fights for good and donates their time and money to food banks and lives a great life... but they can also be people who want to destroy Israel, kill Jews and traumatise my children at school. And at first glance I have no way to distinguish between them. My kids have been frightened multiple times by flag wavers and they get really, really scared when they see one now.

My daughter had to be escorted to school for weeks after the police were involved in her assault in the school hallways by a group of teenage boys. So now when she sees a Palestinian flag, she gets scared. If she's in a car accident, terrified and in pain and opens her eyes to see a Palestinian flag she will absolutely panic. My son would run. So given that it 'would' create harm and wouldn't specifically create any good I can't quite see the point of it. Just because we are the minority doesn't mean we shouldn't count for anything.

I do not think pro-Palestinian = anti-Jewish. I am saying that for me and my family, the fear we experience is intrinsically linked to this flag right now

These completely contradict eachother.

They can be the sort of person who fights for good and donates their time and money to food banks and lives a great life... but they can also be people who want to destroy Israel, kill Jews and traumatise my children at school. And at first glance I have no way to distinguish between them

The same could be said of any group though. Surely the fact that you can't tell these people apart is a sign that being overly discriminatory over a symbol rather than someone's individual behaviour is wrong? Otherwise the same logic and discrimination can be applied to people wearing something that shows support for Israel. Likewise there can be many anti-Semitic people who don't wear a Palestinian flag,.so why not judge by whether they're treating you unfairly or unsafely? With the example of your daughter,.that's a different situation as you're saying for her the flag is a literal trigger of a traumatic memory of an assault, that can apply to all.sorts of things and we can't police people not to wear anything because it might be a random trigger for someone. I still don't truly believe it your daughter was in an emergency situation that you would deny her being cared for by the consultant in charge of they happened to be wearing a Palestinian pin and if you would I'd be very confused how you're twisting that person trying to save your daughter's life with her actively trying to harm her purely because of the behaviour of some people. Just as I don't think a Palestinian or other Arab patient should justifiably feel a Jewish consultant means them harm. Fine if you would rather see one over the other, it's your choice as a patients but to suggest as HCPs they're unsafe or mean harm is quite insulting..

I don’t actually think they do mean me harm. I think in this time of very heightened emotions, do no harm should include a consideration of mental health. So English flags, Jewish stars, whatever… they just aren’t appropriate for NHS staff. There’s no reason for a health care professional to be a political activist at work. In my particular situation, I am very aware of one specific issue but I’m sure plenty of other people have other experiences and triggers so I would say people in a position of trust have a responsibility to be as neutral as possible.

You are very much misunderstanding if you think I said I actually think a doctor or nurse would hurt me for being Jewish at a hospital. My daughter was indeed hurt at school but that was by teenagers, the teachers wearing flags of support for those violent thugs just make her not want to go ask them for help, they haven’t actually hurt her physically.

This is a lot of emotional energy when frankly there should not even be a discussion.
NHS people years ago never wore any badges about anything. That is how it should be. When it became a thing I do not know and don’t care.
If I was Wes Streeting I would make it so they take any badges off.

If you find you are unable to work as a medical person in the NHS without wearing a badge then leave your job.

You are very much misunderstanding if you think I said I actually think a doctor or nurse would hurt me for being Jewish at a hospital.

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood that from your claim you wouldn't be able to see a GP if they were wearing a Palestinian flag and that if you awoke yo a HCP wearing one caring for you that you wouldn't feel safe with them. This very much sounds like you're saying they would hurt you. I'm curious as I asked PP where you draw the line at a ban though? You say Jewish stars, what about a Kippah? Do you really think Jewish doctors who wear them should not be allowed?

I would very much struggle to get my children to see a healthcare professional wearing a Palestinian badge. I would try to ignore it because I’m an adult, but I could have a panic attack. I have plenty of those nowadays so who knows really.

I think kippot and Muslim women covering their hair is very different. Those are religious requirements and not for me to judge. There is no religious requirement for someone to wear a flag or a necklace so no issue banning those (for me). My son’s teacher is Muslim and covers her hair and he isn’t scared of her. He’s very scared of the children who draw Palestinian flags to leave on his desk though.