Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

[Ihatetomatoes]

New report says political badges such as Pro Palestine shouldn't be worn on NHS uniforms. It's led to increased antisemitism and fear amongst Jewish patients.

Also NHS uniforms not to be worn on protests.

This report makes a number of suggestions and in my opinion must be implemented. All political badges off NHS uniforms. No NHS uniforms on protests such as pro Palestine. It contributes to racism and fear.

The NHS should treat all patients equally and individuals political opinions shouldn't be pinned on their uniforms.

No political badges or flags?

Well obviously patients may feel unsafe or unwelcome then. What we need, I’m sure you’ll agree, is for a suitable proportion of those consultants to wear white pride and straight rights badges.

Am I doing this right?

Well then you are wrong. I don’t think any badge has a place in a professional environment unless it is information (like the Welsh example further upthread)

Why could you not ask to see another GP sorry? Are you suggesting every GP at your practice wears these?

Why though make it make sense? You either have a neutral blanket view on badges in which case you wouldn't be internalising a trans or rainbow flag so much but you do and say it scares you - so surely by that logic a purple and green badge would do the opposite.

The suggestion that "white pride" is equivalent to a badge supporting BAME people in a healthcare environment where they're significantly disadvantaged and have worse health outcomes is disingenuous. You're either ignorant or being deliberately obtuse. Likewise can you name an area of healthcare that straight people's experienced are under cared for?

Please by all means explain coherently how white pride and straight rights are even a thing in a system where they're the status quo without sounding like someone deliberately trying to misalign efforts to provide better healthcare that listens to groups facing worse health outcomes.

No you're gonna have to explain how it's similar sorry. We know people wear LGBT lanyards for example as a solidarity symbol to their colleagues and patients who are under represented. Explain how the England badge was doing that? And where in the reporting does it even insinuate that detainees complained about feeling threatened by the intent of it anyway in the way in which people are applying malicious intent and feeling terrified of someone's lanyard showing they support a disadvantages group?

I used the trans flag as a specific example because it would make me question their ability to do the job. It doesn’t ‘scare’ me.

Wanting no badges at all IS a neutral point. If people can’t go to work without virtue signalling whatever view they hold then it’s odd.

I wouldn’t want to see someone with a pro Palestine OR a pro Israel badge even though I don’t have a strong view on it.

Same with any other political cause. If I am in a medical appointment then it’s about that, not about political opinions.

Just have relevant information like name, job, any relevant info like Welsh speaking or sign language or whatever.

By having no badges you offend nobody.

You would expect someone in a medical situation to not let their own positive or negative prejudices affect their work so whether they personally support BAME, LGB, Palestine, Israel or whatever shouldn’t impact on their quality of care

Sorry I must have explained myself badly. I'm not saying that the consultants who want to express hostility should be permitted to wear such badges.

These white pride and straight rights badges are ones to help patients feel safe and supported. If some patients do feel uncomfortable that is unfortunate, but they will be able to go to a different consultant.

If it's neutral then you wouldn't be scared of seeming a bigot would you..because you don't specifically have a problem with people having a differing opinion on trans people..except you do! So much so you'll insinuate a medical professional knows less than you do about biology while you can't educate yourself on the need to have routine basic screening for you HPV. You want to keep ignoring that while you don't want or need to see a flag anyway or a lanyards there are disadvantages groups for whom it makes their healthcare experience better if they can see one of the minority of staff who wears a badge showing they can speak openly and feel comfortable with them while you have the majority of the rest available to you showing no allegiance to any group or cause. The difference exists you're choosing to be offended and make a point of pretending its someone else's fault you don't take care of your body when you have thousands of "neutral" healthcare staff to choose to see.

You're not explaining yourself badly Peter, you're being a pretty general man who thinks he's being clever by being by bringing up a red herring. Please expand which patients it would be making feel safe and supported and why, please I'm very interested to know how you're going to say straight people and white people are statistically facing discrimination and worse healthcare outcomes in the NHS. Also what are the symbols of these badges for these made up organisations you're using to make a point rather than engage with the actual causes and positions people are wearing badges for? What are the societal and political goals of white pride and straight rights organisations?

@Fancythatfancyhat I see the problem here. People wear symbols for many different reasons, and people may also interpret those symbols very differently.

We only want those who wear the symbols with positive intent to wear them.

The rule we should bring in is pretty straightforward: you are permitted to wear a trans rights / Israel / Palestine / England / straight rights / white pride badge if you are doing so with good intent, but not if you are not.

That of course does leave the issue of people interpreting the badges differently.

However, provided there are providers who wearr various types of badges or lack of badges, then if anyone feel unsafe or unwelcome with a particular provider they can see a different one.

Nice one -- solved.

Peter, if you want people to engage in your made up red herring you're going to have to explain what it is. You made up these white pride and straight rights organisations to make your point, you're going to have to explain what they are for me to follow you and say whether I think your point is valid or not. What are they please?

You are jumping on me because of the trans thing.

I am not saying they know less than me. I am saying that if you are proud to advertise that in your opinion someone can change sex or can become a woman by feeling like one, it raises a question over their biological knowledge.

But I have explained that it isn’t a trans issue only.

i don’t want to be treated by anyone who isn’t professional enough to do their job without wearing a badge to show what a good person they apparently are,

Or don’t wear badges in the first place - solved

Your new proposed rule is what: flags are allowed if the population they seek to represent faces worse healthcare outcomes than the population average?

I like your approach and appreciate that you want to ground it in real-world evidence.

"by 2022 overall mortality rates returned to pre-pandemic patterns, with the white and Mixed groups again having the highest mortality."

This report doesn't split out by sexuality, so I'm happy to drop the proposal for straight rights badges. We'll just have the white rights badges, as indicated by your rule.

Or are the goalposts going to move again?

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/long-reads/health-people-ethnic-minority-groups-england

You're making an assumption that they think that though, the badge isn't saying that at all. And I'm not jumping on you for anything I'm simply asking you to expand on the point you started about the trans badge. How do you know for a fact the wearer believes someone can change sex rather than showing they're comfortable to see patients of any presentation and signalling to them that they are comfortable to address them however they would be comfortable?

i don’t want to be treated by anyone who isn’t professional enough to do their job without wearing a badge to show what a good person they apparently are,

By the sounds of it you just don't want to be treated given you haven't answered to say every member of your local and otherwise cervical screening clinics wears a trans badge? Which I very much doubt. I think you were making a hyperbolic point that someone trans badges are so prevalent that you simply can't get treatment you need. If you were against all badges you wouldn't have stated this was solely because of trans badges or be assuming that somehow wearing one means the wearer has less biology knowledge than you who doesn't understand how to use her words and ask to see another clinician.

That sounds very complicated.

Ohhhh is your white pride badge for travellers? I'm still waiting for you to explain what these made up political groups are for.

That's right. Not just traveller badges though. We're going to take a broad measure of health outcomes (like all-cause mortality), and draw a dotted line half-way down the chart to show the average.

Those groups with worse health outcomes get to have staff wearing badges representing them, those with better ones don't.

It will change from time to time. For example during Covid the stats moved a lot, then moved back again.

We'll keep reviewing it every, what, twelve months? To make sure that the right groups are made to feel welcome and included.

Some staff will be designated not to wear any badges, so that any patients who feel uncomfortable are still properly served.

I think we're getting somewhere. Thanks for all your helpful suggestions.

@GeneralPeter also, wear have I said I have an issue with any badge? I know you want to create a red herring by making up organisations that don't exist in order to go "see!! You want to ban badges too!" but it's not based in reality. Is there a reason you're not comfortable engaging in discussion without red herrings? I'm actually not bothered if someone wore a straights right badge, although they'd look as silly as someone wearing a mens right badge, if I didn't like it feels comfortable with them for any reason I'd use my words to see someone else which I've done many times, with it having nothing to do with lanyard or badges. Although I'm guessing expecting us to all be adults means you'll have to reach further and pretend there are NHS employees wearing KKK badges, just to create another fictional extreme instead of engaging with the topic of the thread.

Are you saying. Staff are being mandated to wear rainbow or Palestinian badges? 😂 Why can't you actually engage in the reality rather than appealing to these fantasy examples of yours?

It's not a red herring. It's a direct application of the principles you have expressed.

Badges may or should be worn to help make groups feel welcome.

Doesn't matter if it makes others unwelcome, provided there are other providers with no badges who they can go to.

Not all badges are justified. One justification you endorse though is where a group faces worse health outcomes.

These are your own principles.

What do you mean fantasy example? This is serious business. Do you not agree it's important to make groups with poor health outcomes feel welcome and included through wearing of badges? You did a moment ago.

It was an example. You are clearly triggered by the trans thing. I was making the point that it is all badges that I think should be banned.

I will explain again…

I do not want to be treated by someone who advertises that they feel one way or the other about something. I just want to be treated by someone who can keep their personal views away from their professional life.

Same with solicitors, shop assistants, taxi drivers and any other person I deal with