the behaviour of most men

[notevensurprised]

I’m in my 50s.

Almost all important and non important men in my life, have disappointed me in catastrophic ways. Some directly treating me badly. Some indirectly by treating people I love badly.

I’m at the stage where the scales have fallen from my eyes. Not just fallen, but disappeared into a black hole. I know this happens for many women in perimenopause. I know we suddenly look up and around at this age and we are absolutely done with tolerating bad behaviour.

Some of my own personal stories relating to bad behaviour from men relate to verbal and physical abuse, financial and economic abuse, infidelity and cheating, inequality within the home in terms of chores and life admin, inequality in the workplace and in salaries.

I am just so done.

I’ve been devastated by the actions of my own DF, my own DH, ex BFs, uncles, cousins, friends.

There was one remaining man who I held in high esteem my entire life. BIL of decades. The brother I never had. I learnt recently he has cheated for years. When my DSIS told me, it was just like the last remaining shred of… I can’t even think of the word…. died within me.

It could not be more shocking in terms of who he appears to be from the outside. And yet I am numb.

The world seems to be run and controlled by lunatic men at the moment and this is just the icing on the cake.

This final revelation means I have zero belief in the goodness of any man any longer. I was holding on to it by a shred anyway.

AIBU to feel that the majority of men are cheating, abusive, lazy, weak willed, insecure, selfish, overpaid, mediocre, disrespectful fools?

So when we see bad behaviours from men it’s because we went looking for it and nothing to do with men actually displaying those behaviours?

My issue with this kind of talk is that we are seeing such divisive language and media content constantly it’s ramped up man hating.
it IS the minority of men who are cruel, you can look for what you like in stats and can interpret data as you like.
i am a devout feminist and understand the patriarchal awfulness that does on in the world but recently this seems to have tipped in to a narrative that all men are dangerous and this is staggeringly untrue.
the tale of keeping society divided is as old as time

I mean this respectfully and not in the usual, passive aggressive way it is often used on here, but are you ok?you seem angry, emotional, spiralling. I think you know that it is still not the majority of men who do these things. Yes we still have a patriarchy where more men are in power, although it is slowly changing, but this doesn’t mean the individual man is a bad person.

is it just men you’re spiralling over or is it other areas of your life?

Ok it’s a minority who are actively cruel. What about lazy? What about shit partners? What about shit dads? What about the ones that don’t pull their weight? What about the ones that cheat? And so on? Are we still in minority territory?

Exactly this.
I don't deny the world has many bad men in it, we see examples relentlessly but equally many men are the complete opposite of what you describe.
I have produced 2 ,married a good one, work with 3 good kind ones and am thankful to have other good men in my family.
I am sorry you have had experiences that make you feel the way you do about men but I have to defend posts such as yours.
I am under no illusion , I'm aware I'm lucky - so far .

Why do women “tolerate” bad behaviour from romantic partners? Raise your bar.

Yes, society continues to put extremely less expectation on men to be responsible for their actions than it does on women and that has to change.
however men aren’t inherently awful / evil people
My opinion (which is my own and can be different from other people’s just to remind you) is that if we want a better society then as women we should be looking for positives in men and support a culture of true equality, nobody wins by segregating genders into good and bad boxes

This. I’m glad I’ve never met all these awful men.

There are women 'guilty' of some of your examples too.

I have to agree but there are some good men, just few and far in between.

If you start a thread about them , I’ll happily discuss that too. “Women do it too” is not an excuse , or makes the behaviours more palatable.

It does read a bit that you are expecting men to not behave like men! They are like that. I still love loads of them.
Men (in the UK in this age) are required to live in a society that expects them to quell their status seeking, sex seeking, testosterone driven urges. They mostly comply but I think a bit of realism is needed. We’re all just mammals driven by illogical urges. Appreciate men for what they’re good at and protect yourself as much as you can.

It’s an endless struggle for women to manage living amongst the men around them. I am so grateful to live in a time and place where they are controlled enough that I can choose to live without one.

So I do agree with you but don’t think you will ever change men. We just have to stay vigilant. Past societies often just accepted that men would have mistresses and that didn’t affect their social status as decent and good people. If they can get extra marital sex with no effect on their domestic life they generally will.
Im not sorry I married as I needed that partnership to raise my children. Yes I gave more than he did. He was a selfish, lazy cheat and I’m single now. My own amazing young adult daughters are extremely wary and don’t date much and don’t expect to marry or have children. That’s the reality of women not putting up with men’s shit.

Hi @notevensurprised
i must say i can understand where you're coming from. It sounds like youve had a lot of tough personal experiences and on top of that our news cycles are dominated by Trump Putin Xi Netanyahu Ayotollahs making decisions about the world and (even wars in certain cases) that are affecting us daily.

Add to that the rise in hatred to women online and of course there are constant stories on shooters, murders, rapes and DV where the perpetrators are all men.

In spite of all this, i do believe there are some good men around. Some of my friends have lovely husbands and my brother is great. Ive also worked with a few wonderful men in the past. But there are slim pickings :0(

i would like to see a world with more women in charge.

The thing that gives me pause is that every person who becomes disillusioned with a group feels their conclusion is evidence-based.

People who distrust men, women, immigrants, boomers, millennials, landlords or tenants can all produce a long list of personal experiences to justify it. That doesn't necessarily mean the conclusion is true.

It’s not about men being inherently awful/evil . I honestly believe that real change can only happen if the bar is raised higher and we stop expecting/being content with the bare minimum , rather than the “at least he doesn’t…” narrative and making excuses.

Im sure there are some nice mem out there, you have been really unlucky its probably 50/50 with decent Vs moron but the same probably goes for women. Hoping you meet a nice kind man 💜

Statistics tend to back these feelings up though.

A third of men admit to having abused an intimate partner.
I think it was 1 in 6 admitted to be sexually attracted to children.
30% admitted they would rape a woman if they were guaranteed no consequences to themselves.

Here's a box of chocolates, I've shoved a third of them up my arse and put them back but the rest are fine. You're gonna just put them in the bin aren't you.

And that's the ones that said "yes, I am a violent horrible person." I know my ex would never ever admit that what he did to me was abuse or rape. Not even to himself.

Yes I think the vast majority of men suck. They're not all paedophiles, rapists, abusers, murderers. But thats the bottom of the barrel. What percentage of them are actually wholesome, good people. We call a man a good dad because he takes his own kids to the park, like it's somehow above and beyond what's expected of him.

I know one man that cares more about his family than himself, that is driven and capable of achieving great things against the odds without being told and carried by a woman. One that is calm in conflict, patient, selfless and that is my DH. I love my brothers, I do, they're not violent, but I know one is explosive in arguments with his partner and both are like teenage boys in mens bodies, they take no responsibility for their lives or their families and are just carried through by their partners or parents. It's a shame, they're not nasty people, but I don't feel like men grow up the way women do and take responsibility.

My dad is nearly 60 and still acts like a jack the lad with no responsibilities, he has no savings, masses of debt because he spurts money on cool shit. Has no interest in his grandkids. Won't make another commitment at all to his girlfriend of god knows how many years. He's still an 18 year old lad.
My ex was a 5 year old with no ability to control his own emotions, he threw a tantrum because I ran out baby a bath and he hadn't had a bath in a week because I hadn't ran it. He's the same age as my dad.

They don't grow up, they just become angry and bitter that women stop looking after them like children.

Not all. I know one good one. But far far too many.

I was reading or watching something where a man was saying that his ex wife divorced him because he didn't pull his weight. But then he met a woman that have been brutally abused by her ex, and she just appreciated that he didn't rape or punch her, so she didn't mind doing an the housework and cooking because he was better than her ex. I think that's what we do. We've been abused or seen such heights of abuse even just in the media and think "well this guy's isn't a rapist or murderer, what a good man!" And the men all benefit from these horrible men because it makes them look better.

My DH is wonderful, but has suffered masses of abuse in his early life.

They support the fact men commit most violent crimes yes, but they're a very long way from proving that most or all men are cheating, abusive or selfish.

The people who hold power in our society are far disproportionately men. Physical, financial, at all levels of government, in business and socially.
If we only have a problem with a small minority of awful men, why have the vast majority of good men who hold the power, not dealt with the bad men?
The majority of men might not be directly cruel, lazy, dangerous etc, but they are turn a blind eye and enabling the ones that are. Otherwise we wouldn't be having the conversations at all.
Society is always divided with those who hold power on one side and those who hold less power on the other. It's the power imbalance that prevents unity, not discussing it.

I don’t think that’s true I don’t think men turn a blind eye to men who are crazy cruel or dangerous, it’s usually men capturing or prosecuting for example.

they are no more turning a blind eye than women are.

I think if some of these men are chosen friends rather than family you might need to learn how to watch for red flags and be more selective. Not all men are like this. As a child I witnessed some of the worse of male.behaviours growing up and as a result am easily triggered by characteristics I associate with those men. I tend to avoid being friends with very macho, cocky, leary, highly opinionated men. I call them Peacocks, they seem to be the sort many women including some of my friends are attracted to, I find them very off-putting.

@notevensurprised people generally have incredibly poor pattern recognition and are almost welded to internal belief systems so no amount of credible evidence penetrates. It is typically about survival as living day to day in such an unsafe state would be pretty terrifying.

There is insurmountable evidence supporting your assertions but it is not possible to assimilate at the individual level.

You might not go looking but if you’re quoting numbers about how many of the other school mums are married to bad men, that’s three you mentioned. What about all the others who are happily married to good men?

I feel respected, loved and cherished in my relationship and I know I have a good man. He’s not masking anything and I know he is as kind and good as he shows me he is.

That’s all I can judge him on.

There are bad people out there - both male and female but to generalise like you have is ridiculous.

That is a lot of people to hate.
For my own experience I have had good and bad. My DH is lovely, intelligent, gentle and kind. My Dad was a good man. Nobody had a bad word to say about him.
I have met women who I have disliked, just for balance, who have been in positions of power. Politically, in senior places in organisations. Who I have held little respect for. Who seem self serving and ugly in many ways.
And women who have not gone to work who I have not thought highly of too.