AIBU to think sex and gender need different terms if distinct?

[sabreslot]

We have been told that sex and gender are not the same thing. So, as the words woman and man describe someone's sex, why are we using the same words to describe someone’s gender identity.

For example, if a man (sex) has a gender identity that is ‘woman’ they are effectively using a word that describes the opposite sex, which they are not.

Surely, if we had a different word to describe people’s genders and indeed if there was a clear definition, as there are with the words that describe sex, many of the arguments around this subject would be put to bed.

With this in mind, could someone please explain to me what gender is if sex and gender are different things.

AIBU - If sex and gender are separate things then we should not use the same words to describe both.

But apparently we are ‘thick’ for not knowing what it is.

waiting for a definition

I'll give it a crack - to me it means a public 'display' of one's sex in line with the cultural trends of the time and place, for procreation purposes.
That and displaying characteristics which would make a potential mate want to breed with you to give the best odds on the child surviving childhood, such as protectiveness and caring qualities.

From there we get women actually looking after children because breastfeeding, so, the caring stereotype, while the dads are more physically and consistently able to take on the harder labour ('men should be strong'). Obviously not everyone wants to take part in the breeding nowadays and that's fair enough, the planet is pretty full, plus times have changed so there's less need to display adherence to these survival based roles and people are in the UK at least, free to opt out of taking part.

Gendered clothing I imagine comes from biological functions such as periods (try stuffing a load of rags in your pants then wearing trousers and not being completely self conscious about what you're displaying to everyone, never mind the implications of alerting men as to whether you are able to potentially breed or not in certain times/societies), and it's more economical and practical to wear a dress/skirt to accommodate hormonal fluctuations in eg belly size rather than getting trousers in different sizes (in the days before lycra!). However, it's worth trying to differentiate between the practical and the unequal eg using make up to conceal one's suboptimal health in order to still attract a mate, which only women tend to do (cos, patriarchy?).

It looks like many miss the biological and historical connections. They see 'gender' as a thing all by itself that you can opt into or out of (or even as something that can determine your sex it seems!), which is only a problem practically if it's conflated with sex, which should be the most important thing seeing as sex is what our species relies on.

Fwiw op I completely agree that there should be new words for sex imitators (which I see as a completely natural phenomenon by the way, even if it can be offensive). Mimics? Sims? You wouldn't even have to specify which sex they were imitating. There would just need to be a culture of general acceptance that this is what/who they are, alongside zero requirement for any public delusion about them being the opposite sex.

That's quite long for a dictionary definition.

But also it's problematic simply because men don't have to have fake breasts or implants, or long hair, or wear makeup, or wear dresses, etc. They don't have to mimic being female in order to be considered transwomen.

And the same goes the other way. Women do not have to grow beards, flatten their breasts, cut their hair short or wear shirts and trousers to be considered transmen.

Expecting any of that is transphobic so it can't possibly be a definition of gender.

@WallaceinAnderland if there isn't any consciously expressed display of stereotypically gendered clothing or attitude in public or private then it could be said that that individual is opting out of doing so, and i believe there's already a word for that: agender.

As for 'They don't have to mimic being female in order to be considered transwomen. And the same goes the other way' - maybe they do but you just don't see it if you're a colleague rather than a lover.

I imagine most women do understand gender as a social construct. It's all the expectations like women should look after children, men should go to work. Women should have long hair on their heads, but no hair anywhere else. Men should have short hair all over. Women should wear makeup and men should not.

According to sex - women have vaginas and men have penises. All of the extra things are "gender norms".

What confuses me, is that there is a narrative that transgender people are not re-enforcing these arbitrary gender norms that feminists have been fighting against.

Ok. I had planned to ignore this thread as it is clearly full of thick people but a lot of men are trying to pretend they are women on the basis of the fact they have long hair, wear lipstick etc. This does not make them biologically women. They are simply reproducing the societal norm of a woman in Western society in the 21st century. Yet again, gender is a social construct and sex is biology. If you don’t get that, that reflects on your intelligence and education. I honestly don’t give a fuck about the people who disagree with me on this.

@JSMill They are simply reproducing the societal norm of a woman in Western society in the 21st century. Yet again, gender is a social construct and sex is biology. If you don’t get that, that reflects on your intelligence and education. I honestly don’t give a fuck about the people who disagree with me on this.

Transgender people are mostly focused on replicating secondary sexual characteristics.

Transgender women may remove hair from their body and use hormones to grow breasts. Transgender men try to build muscle and use hormones to grow body hair.

Transgender people may also opt for surgery to modify their faces, again replicating secondary sexual characteristics.

Sorry to break the news to you, but body hair, breasts, shoulder size, jawline, facial hair, waist-to-hip ratio, and brow bone size are not a "social construct." They are biologically-determined characteristics.

When transgender people try to modify these parts of their body, they're not adopting a "social construct." They are masking biology.

While this would be ideal, you must live in a different society to me, where I have been told I have to wear makeup up at work because I'm a woman, where I had to wear a skirt to school and was made fun of as a teen for having 'boy' hair.

No. If you look at Alex Drummond for example. Alex is a transwoman but does not use what you would describe as 'female' gender stereotypes. So that does not fit your definition.

https://irisprize.org/people/alex-drummond/

For those that don't want to click the link, here she is

Alex is a pisstaker is what he is.

Here He Is , not ever she

@DressOrSkirt While this would be ideal, you must live in a different society to me, where I have been told I have to wear makeup up at work because I'm a woman,

I have had maybe half a dozen jobs during my life. In not one of those jobs have women ever been told to wear makeup.

My manager (female) regularly wears no makeup. There isn't a single person who cares.

where I had to wear a skirt to school

That one has changed in recent years. Though what you're talking about here is an issue of children being bound to old traditions, and not having autonomy to choose their own clothing, which is a separate issue and hardly demonstrates that gender is a "social construct."

I was forced to wear a tie to school. That doesn't prove that "ties are a social construct." Indeed - no one in the real world, outside of schools, wears a tie.

and was made fun of as a teen for having 'boy' hair.

Again, this means nothing. School children make fun of other children for just about any reason. It doesn't mean it's a "social construct."

There are many women who have short hair, many people who don't care about your short hair, and many people who may compliment your short hair. Why do these perspectives not take priority over someone who makes fun of your short hair?

Well yes, but for those people saying that gender is something that can be defined, they would call him 'she' because of gender.

I know it doesn't make sense, that's kind of my point.

Words can have more than one meaning.

Gender can mean a coy euphemism for sex as in "we are having a scan today and hope to find out the babies gender"

Or it can mean a set of stereotypes such as girls are gentle and quiet, whereas boys like rough play. Or liking pink and having long hair are feminine, while liking cars and engineering is masculine.

Or it can a part of grammar in some languages.

No one seems to struggle with other words being multifunctional. Set has more than a dozen definitions.

1. Make-up. Ok, but I am saying I have experienced it, and recently.

1. Skirt. The boys didn't have to wear skirts whereas the girls did, that is separate from a tie that everyone had to wear.

1. Hair. I am giving an example of people who did care about my short hair and calling me a boy for it. You said no-one cares, but plenty of people do.

These are all examples of gender norms within gender as a social construct.

Yes but none of those have anything to do with anyone being transgender.

Sex stereotypes are regressive and harmful to both sexes, but more so to women.

In some languages it is part of grammar but again, that relates to sex.

When you try to use gender to describe women, it all becomes a bit odd. Just stick to sex and you're fine. Every woman has a sex.

There is one thing that links all women, across the whole world, throughout all time and in all cultures and that is their sex. Nothing else comes close. No fashion or tradition is worldwide.

If you are using gender to refer to sex then don't use it to support out dated and oppressive stereotypes.

I agree, but some people are trying to argue that it is this one thing or that one thing when the reality is it has more than one meaning common usage.

TRAs often go for a bit of bait and switch using one meaning one minute then using a different one to try to and obscure the truth that sex is binary and immutable.

@DressOrSkirt Skirt. The boys didn't have to wear skirts whereas the girls did, that is separate from a tie that everyone had to wear.

I'm saying that factor is moreso linked to tradition and children not having autonomy. It is not evidence that "gender is a social construct."

Hair. I am giving an example of people who did care about my short hair and calling me a boy for it. You said no-one cares, but plenty of people do.

You said this was at school. Personally, I place very little value on what children do and say. Children do and say stupid stuff all the time, and I don't think the school environment is an accurate reflection of society in any shape or form.

You have to be able to define things though, especially if you want to make law around it.

Even the Oxford English Dictionary struggles. They have come up with

• the state of being male or female, particularly when referring to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. It also denotes a broader range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female

The Cambridge Dictionary is even worse

• a group of people in a society who share particular qualities or ways of behaving which that society associates with being male, female, or another identity

What do you think gender is if not a social construct? Why would one sex be expected to wear something different than the other?

School is part of society. And where do you think children get the idea that girls have long hair and boys have short hair?

@DressOrSkirt What do you think gender is if not a social construct? Why would one sex be expected to wear something different than the other?

They're not. People make their own choices and decisions about what they wear. Society has no part in it.

School is part of society. And where do you think children get the idea that girls have long hair and boys have short hair?

Again, boys and girls have all sorts of strange beliefs and ideas that don't reflect society.

I've seen dozens of school kids make their ties really short so that it's a little stub. It looks really weird. Where did that idea come from? It definitely didn't come from society because I have never seen anyone wear a tie like that outside of school.

They literally are and I've given examples.

Yes that bloke with the beard seems to just be fucking about with the concept of gender and the meaning of words.

As for school skirts... Schools like to uphold traditions... Skirts are traditional women's wear. Thankfully they are finally catching up to the fact that the world has moved on.

Hair... Again it's the visual differentiation of the sexes thing. Women got long(er), presumably because they are less likely to go bald.

What's interesting I think is why such extreme visual differentiation was so desired in the past, yet nowadays only some people really care.

I still find these terms confusing.

To me, Trans Identifying Man immediately makes me think 'a man who is trans', ie a man pretending to be a woman, whereas it actually means 'a trans person who is identifying as a man' ie a woman pretending to be a man.

It's like one of those 'if John is my mother's uncle and Jane is my brother's grandmother, what relationship is Jane to John?' questions.