AIBU to think sex and gender need different terms if distinct?

[sabreslot]

We have been told that sex and gender are not the same thing. So, as the words woman and man describe someone's sex, why are we using the same words to describe someone’s gender identity.

For example, if a man (sex) has a gender identity that is ‘woman’ they are effectively using a word that describes the opposite sex, which they are not.

Surely, if we had a different word to describe people’s genders and indeed if there was a clear definition, as there are with the words that describe sex, many of the arguments around this subject would be put to bed.

With this in mind, could someone please explain to me what gender is if sex and gender are different things.

AIBU - If sex and gender are separate things then we should not use the same words to describe both.

It needs to become the case otherwise we'll forever be going round in circles.

There's so much debate because people play fast and loose with the words man and woman. So we need to actively start swapping these out for male/female, terms that cannot be argued with.
They say language is always evolving... so let's evolve it!

It doesn’t really answer my questions.

For example

Many forms for employment ask for gender and not sex.

Why are employers for example not asking for sex? Surely the only reason to ask these personal questions are for data purposes, ensuring all applicants get a fair application. But if this question means different things to different people it is going to make al the data meaningless.

I can’t for example imagine questions on race being confusing and data being spoilt because it means different things to different people. It would be socially totally unacceptable for a white person to identify as black, even if they feel that they align due the stereotypical profile that society has constructed. But a man can identify as a woman and skew al data for employment purposes right now.

So you were taught that the definition of ‘woman' could also mean ‘man'?

Never heard this as a definition.
Though tick box forms often ask for gender and then offer man / woman as the options. They should ask for sex.

This is my understanding:

Biological / sex: Male / Female
Adult person who is one of these sexes: Man / Woman
Gender : Masculine / Feminine (a spectrum of characteristics socially attached / presumed to be aligned with sex, may include some general statistical sex characteristics to wild stereotypes . A social construct)

Man who defines himself as having feminine gender: Trans Identified Man.
Woman who defines herself as having masculine gender: Trans Identified Woman

Person who is clear about their sex and identifies as such but enjoys a wider gender presentation: Butch / Effeminate or whatever.

That’s the problem imo with the concept of Gender Recognition certificates, they have given the word “ gender” credibility which it doesn’t have. The GRC should be abolished , obviously those who already have those should not have them repealed but the lie should be stopped asap.

@larksascending So what about trans woman, is that their gender?

In some other countries they have gender dependent language to describe inanimate objects, such as a table. I have no idea how they decide the gender of, say a bridge, but it obviously means something totally unrelated to sex.

In the UK the words male/female and the words man/woman relate to sex. There is no such thing as a male woman. That would be an oxymoron.

And if it’s just their gender why do they think that entitled them to women’s single/sex spaces, what with sex and gender being g different and all that.

It’s bizarre!

The thing I find so odd is if one is liberally minded enough to accept men should be able to dress and act how they like, why does that person also believe in the restrictive stereotypes so much that in order for them to dress as they wish they must literally become the opposite sex.

Either you are liberally minded and men should be able to act and dress in an effeminate way, no questions asked. Or you are a traditionalist non Liberal who believes that real men can’t do that and if they do, they must be women.

It's a very regressive movement OP, relying heavily on stereotypes which are harmful to both sexes but particularly to women.

It's hugely related to that which we are not allowed to talk about on mn at the moment.

Tell that to Rachel Dolezal!

??

Google, or watch the documentary on her. The Rachel Divide.

All the posters saying female/male is sex and women/man is gender, what sex based word do use to describe an adult human female?

I completely agree. It should be sex = man/woman male/female, this can't be changed. Lesbians used butch or femme to describe a lesbian woman's presentation. People who think their gender identity is important can invent a word for it and give a definition of that. The thing they shouldn't do is pretend the word woman means women and men who like to pretend to be women.

Until we’re at a point in civilisation where boys/girls men/women are treated completely equally then there will be gender, there maybe a biological reason when this will never happen.

Woman

I have no idea what these posters are talking about?

what the hell is woman gender?

Please explain this?

how does this mean a male is a woman?

You (editorial you) are quite thick if you don't understand the difference between sex and gender. They are two different words, with two different meanings. How is this difficult?

This.

Biological sex is real and it never changes.

Gender can be any of over 150 different genders and is a belief system, can change, change again, is in the head.

Superb post, I totally agree

What is gender?
I am not thick but please explain

@JSMill However, for example, the idea that being feminine is having long hair, wearing makeup and high heels is a societal expectation and can change over time.

There is literally no one who expects you to wear long hair, makeup, or high heels.

There is nothing that is inherently female about long hair, makeup, and high heels. A woman can decide not to have long hair, not to wear makeup, and not to wear high heels. If a man has long hair, makeup, and high heels, he is still unquestionably a man.

If you have long hair, makeup, and high heels, that's solely because of a personal choice you made. It has absolutely nothing to do with "society."

Exactly

I don't know what gender means either OP. No one has been able to explain it I don't think.