AIBU to think sex and gender need different terms if distinct?

[sabreslot]

We have been told that sex and gender are not the same thing. So, as the words woman and man describe someone's sex, why are we using the same words to describe someone’s gender identity.

For example, if a man (sex) has a gender identity that is ‘woman’ they are effectively using a word that describes the opposite sex, which they are not.

Surely, if we had a different word to describe people’s genders and indeed if there was a clear definition, as there are with the words that describe sex, many of the arguments around this subject would be put to bed.

With this in mind, could someone please explain to me what gender is if sex and gender are different things.

AIBU - If sex and gender are separate things then we should not use the same words to describe both.

No, trans identifying man is literally a biological male who identifies as trans.

As you have pointed out, they have obfuscated facts by applying opposite sex words and this is deliberate so no wonder you were confused.

We are slowly taking back our language now. We are even allowed to call a man a man in court which not so long ago was considered contempt of court. They had to re-write the bench book for judges to make it clear that sex means biological sex.

There should be another word like man that 'believes he is something he isn’t'

English already has a word for that: "deluded". However, despite its accuracy, activists claim it is impolite in this context.

Anyway the reason you are struggling to explain this is because it's all a load of illogical nonsense. Gender was only ever a polite synonym for sex. And then a cult was born on social media which originally claimed humans could change sex (gender) and when challenged on the impossibility of that then started to claim that of course humans cannot change sex but gender is some nebulous separate indefinable concept totally unrelated to sex. Even though they want their supposed gender identity to give them access to spaces based on sex.

You can't argue rationally with people who are being irrational. It's a waste of time.

We don't need new words, we just need to re-establish reality and put "Identifying as..." in the bin.

Spot on.

First define what a man and a woman is not speaking of their biology

We already have the words you are looking for- feminine and masculine- but no one wants to use them.

As far as I’m concerned sex and gender mean the same thing.

You could possibly use masculine or feminine if you are talking about clothes, make up and presentation and shit. But the minute we start differentiating sex and some spurious ‘identity’ based bullshit we are back in the tall weeds that have caused, and are still causing, women such so much harm.

It’s the other way round. You don’t hear of trans-females, but you do hear of trans-women.

Sex and gender are two different things. Sex is biological. Gender is a social construct. I am speaking as a person who did gender studies as part of her degree. I don’t know what is so complicated for people to understand.

Well, a woman is someone who feels like a woman and feels a connection with women’s things, like heels, make-up and dresses. Why should anyone be told they can’t like those things?! It’s so transphobic.

PS I’m being sarcastic.

But she’s talking about using the terms woman or man to denote your gender when they’re sex-based words. So knowing the difference between sex and gender is besides the point.

When I went to school, sex and gender were literally the same thing.

I have seen people attempt to distinguish the two, but all definitions I have ever seen in this regard tend to just be a word salad which makes absolutely no sense.

Sex and gender are two different things. Sex is biological. Gender is a social construct.

I have no idea what "gender is a social construct" means, and I am absolutely sure you don't know either.

How can gender be a social construct? People have biological traits and characteristics that have absolutely nothing to do with society. It's not as if people have boobs or balls as a result of society; that implies that people would not grow boobs or balls if they lived in a different society, which of course makes absolutely no sense.

Are you saying these words should be erased? These are exactly the words that denote traditional gender roles.

Best to stick to man and woman/ girl and boy. Biology is real.

How you dress and how you see your role are optional and do not denote masculinity or femininity.

Sex = male/female
Gender = man/woman

Many people these days seem to use these terms interchangeably, so much they have lost their meaning.
Sex and gender ARE two different things. So when we talk about single SEX spaces, we are referring to just that; spaces where either biological females belong or spaces where biological males belong. What 'gender' those individuals choose to present as, is a separate conversation entirely.

Ultimately, it IS word salad, used by certain people to push an ideology that I would say the vast, vast majority of people just dont subscribe to and, more importantly, refuse to be bullied into subscribing to. The only way forward, especially in light of the latest ruling, is to take back ownership of language: that SEX refers to whether someone has a penis or a vagina (as in single sex spaces) and GENDER refers to what someone may choose to present as irrespective of what SEX they are.

I understand the logic behind the OP's thinking, and it has a certain appeal, but for me, the fundamental problem is that I still don't really know what "gender" is supposed to mean.

I've never seen anyone manage to explain it in any terms which don't basically boil down to a few outdated stereotypes about the different sexes.

I don't like stereotypes and I don't think they're helpful. So my personal preference would be to get rid of the stereotypes altogether rather than legitimising them by giving them new words which would somehow seem to imply that they represent an actual thing.

I would prefer to just identify people in terms of their (biological) sex and an understanding that both men and women can dress as they wish and follow whatever interests they might have etc. I'm not sure that we need any new labels?

@shugglesI don’t know what ‘gender is a social construct is’? Oh do fuck off. Maybe you don’t have the intelligence to figure out what social construct means but I do. It doesn’t even require great intelligence. Male/female is determined by biology. However, for example, the idea that being feminine is having long hair, wearing makeup and high heels is a societal expectation and can change over time.

What is gender though?

There is no definition of man and woman except for biological sex as far as I know.

I mean there’s regressive stereotypes from 1950’s films but no definition other than sex.

So, I’m still struggling to really understand what gender is.

I really glad you responded and have knowledge on gender.

Please could you explain what female gender is? OR woman gender?

How do you present as a gender?

Genuine question, please could you give me examples.

Exactly.

@JSMill

Long hair does not make anyone more feminine does it?

Meatloaf had long hair as did David Beckham and loads of other men. It didn’t make them one bit feminine because they are men.

Twiggy had short hair as did many 1960’s models didn’t make any of them look remotely masculine.

You need to really open your mind to what you are saying because I think you are talking about inaccurate stereotypes.

But when we use the word woman to denote the gender of someone it doesn’t work because woman is a word that has a very clear definition of sex.

So what would the words be to explain gender?

What even is gender?

Which is the problem and what we should not do.

Can I make it more complicated?

I see three areas.

Sex = biology
Gender = sociology term for the social layer build around the sex. We can refuse it as stereotypes, but it is valuable to study and understand what the society tells men ans women about being men and women, what influences young people's perception, how it differs between countries/demographic groups and changes in time
Gender identity - how one think about themselves in the context of the previous two. Some people don't give it much thought, some are happy with both their sex and their perception of the social layer connected to it, some accept their sex and are critical of the social stereotypes, some believe they would be happier if they were the other sex or part of the other stereotypes, ...
It's fascinating how differently people think about themselves. It's frustrating how some people believe that their thinking about themselves should have some influence over the objective word around them.