AIBU to think sex and gender need different terms if distinct?

[sabreslot]

We have been told that sex and gender are not the same thing. So, as the words woman and man describe someone's sex, why are we using the same words to describe someone’s gender identity.

For example, if a man (sex) has a gender identity that is ‘woman’ they are effectively using a word that describes the opposite sex, which they are not.

Surely, if we had a different word to describe people’s genders and indeed if there was a clear definition, as there are with the words that describe sex, many of the arguments around this subject would be put to bed.

With this in mind, could someone please explain to me what gender is if sex and gender are different things.

AIBU - If sex and gender are separate things then we should not use the same words to describe both.

I’m nostalgic for the days when ‘gender’ was largely used to label all the foreign language nouns I had to learn - masculine, feminine, neuter.

Don’t we already have words we could use (I don’t use these btw because they are regressive)

Man - Effeminate or Masculine
Woman - Butch or Feminine

Or we could just stop labelling men and woman who dress and present in different way and get on with life but acknowledge our correct SEX.

So why do people use the terms for sex when talking about gender?

It makes no sense.

I'm not saying that the way how people use the words makes much sense.

I'm saying that part of the confusion is based on those three layers, that only sex and gender identity don't explains the mess.

Because they want to blur the lines.

Nobody thinks a feminine man should be able to access women's spaces, but if they're a transwoman, then that changes things in a lot of people's minds. It makes them seem like a kind of woman.

In my mind they already do. Biological sex is male or female(and yes some intersex). A
gender is man women furry binary cis gay blue with pink spots or whatever

But man and woman were never words referring to gender identities; they were always sex-based. I think this is what OP means. Why use sex-based language for a gender identity when it just muddies the water?

So it needs to be universally understood that male/female refers to sex and man/woman refers to gender.

For me personally, I dont subscribe to gender ideology; so it doesn't occur to me how I 'present'. I'm an adult human female.

The definition of gender and social construct seems to be that women and men behave in generally defined different ways within each sex group due to societies expectations on their sex.

With progress we have debunked many of these societal expectations, so why on earth do we use these old expectations on each sex to define a person not adhering to their own sex expectations by claiming they are the opposite sex ‘gender'.

If those societal expectations don’t exist any more how does a man become a woman by acting in the way that was expected of the opposite sex within society.

I’m probably not explaining myself very well. But if men and women no longer need to adhere to societies made up expectations of women and men then why would a man become a woman because he is behaving in a way a woman used to be required to behave.

Women generally don’t wear dresses and heels most of the time. In fact 99% of women out and about tend to wear jeans and t-shirts and trainers, same a men. So, it is no longer pertaining to societies expectation of women. So, why does a man wearing a dress have the ‘gender’ of woman when that no longer exists?

But I thought gender was a social construct?

But man and woman are words with definitions that do not mean gender

Biological Sex: Male/Female
Gender: Man/Woman.

No. No male can be a woman.
He can dress up as a woman. He can have long hair, wear make-up , and even BELIEVE he’s a woman. But he can’t actually BE a woman. He’s a man.

Please could you give me some examples because those words already have definitions that pertain to sex to me

But what words do you use for a man who has a certain gender or a man who has a gender identity. Because if you use the word woman at all you are confusing things because woman means female sex. Large Gametes. XX

But it won't ever be universally understood because it was never the case.

The original idea was, that what we can name "gender behaviour" is coming inherently from the sex. That women are X,Y,Z because it is their female nature.
Debunking it means, that we understand that big part of the "gendered behaviour" is caused by the society - different upbringing, pressures, stereotypes, not by the nature.

The societal expectations very much do exist, and many people believe they "work" or "should work", but the power to enforce them is lower and more people choose to ignore (some part of) them.
Still, the gendered behaviour exists - if we take gel nails. It's something some women do and nearly no men. I suppose majority of women don't do it, but still it is a service where a typical clients is a woman. So a man could go to the salon because they want nice nails, or because they want to get an experience which is not massively known to men.

In a sense, trans activists are very traditional people, because they still see the stereotypes as valid - and use them for their agenda.

The example with jeans shows, that the social expectation changed in regards to women's clothes, I'm not aware of any normal item of clothing which would be scandalous on women and mark them as "men".
The expectation around men's clothing haven't changed completely, so while they are some menly men wearing skirts, other men can wear them trying to declare their feminity and it is often understood like that.

Anyway, the important part isn't that they decide to show their inner life, the important part is that it doesn't/shouldn't mean anything with regards to single sex spaces.

Sex and gender are already two distinct words that mean different things. Your
sex is an immutable scientific fact. Your gender (if you believe such a thing even exists) is a social construct.
People just need to stop using the terms interchangeably and then we’ll be fine.

Female and male are sex.

Woman and man are gender.

That’s what I was taught during a class on the subject anyway.

This is exactly how I see it and always have. It’s perfectly fine for women to be masculine and men to be feminine (in terms of dress, mannerisms, preferences etc). I honestly thought we were doing a good job of heading in that direction in the 1980s but then sex stereotypes started to get even more rigid than they’d ever been and this is where we’ve ended up.

I think you might be overthinking this. Gender ideologues have decided that these words have a new meaning when, to the vast, vast majority of people, they dont. It's like the word 'cis', which is apparently used to differentiate between a biological woman and transwoman, when almost everyone knows a descriptor for a biological woman is not needed. But if we dont use the word cis we're transphobic (which is another made up word). It's all nonsense.

Literally never heard that in my life. The dictionary definition of woman was always last human female until very recent when some activists tried to have it changed to include gender bullshit.

This! 👏👏

Whereas a lot of us feel that a woman is an adult human female. That was the dictionary definition for a very long time.

‘Woman’ is the word for adult female human in the same way that ‘cow’ is the word for a female bovine, ‘ewe’ for a female ovine and ‘sow’ for a female porcine.

But what words do you use for a man who has a certain gender or a man who has a gender identity.

You use ‘trans-identifying man’ or ‘man who believes he is a woman’ or ‘man who pretends he is a woman’ or ‘man who wants to be a woman’ or ‘cross dresser’ or ‘transsexual’ or ‘feminine man’ or just ‘man’.