To think that not always, but quite often, it is the parents...

[ImImmortalNowBabyDoll]

I was a teacher for a few years and in the years I taught I saw behaviour getting MUCH worse and parents getting less and less inclined to support teachers.

I saw a facebook post today saying that it's unreasonable to blame parents for children's behaviour in school and it then went on to talk about how hard it is for ND kids to stay regulated at school and it's the fault of "the system" that they can't cope.

There's a family I know with 2 boys who are both constantly in trouble in school. The classroom frequently has to be evacuated because of the younger one's violent outbursts. He's about 8.

I saw him today in the library, running around, ignoring the librarian, and swearing profusely the whole time. They're both always out unsupervised, roaming the streets, and when I see him with his Mum, she speaks to him with the same language he uses for everyone else. Social services had to get involved because she kept smacking them, so now she swears and shouts at them and they hit her, and she asks what she's supposed to do now she's not allowed to hit them back.

I don't know if they are ND, but the problem is that they're barely being parented and when they are, they example being set is dreadful.

Gosh I wholeheartedly agree with this. I am not a teacher but listening to some of the parents of my kids friends (Y11, Y9 and Y6) going on about what teachers and schools should be doing like they themselves are highly qualified in education is unbelievable. I honestly cannot listen to it it winds me up so much and I would say bar none, the most vocal parents are the ones with the kids who are either incredibly rude, badly behaved or simply entitled. Quite obviously teachers are not 100% right all the time since they, like us, are human beings (and serving of utmost respect in most cases) but Christ the vitriol they receive for taking away break time or whatever from little disrespectful shit Johnny who has disrupted the entire class YET AGAIN is unbelievable,

and if I was a parent with a child with genuine ND then I’d be bloody furious that it was becoming so synonymous with explaining bad behaviour. Most ND kids in my experience are extremely well behaved and respectful and cannot stand the disruptive shits that are simply badly behaved.

Schools should have robust behaviour and communication policies and SLT should have the full support for staff when they have been clearly and consistently followed.

In the 70s those naughty kids - usually boys -were sent to bad lads school. The next step was crime and prison cos they learnt young that they were excluded, thick and not welcome.
Similarly in the good ol days those naughty kids got removed from their parents and put into nice, possibly churchy/almost definitely white/2 parent families - put up for adoption/fostering.
The 50s 60s 70s kids were frightened, ruled at school and home by fear. If kids were neurodiverse then, or a bit slow, they were physically beaten/shamed/shunned.

Mums are now getting the blame for "poor parenting" whilst teacher parents - also usually mums unless you're a head - are on the verge of cracking up whilst teaching in a system that is over loaded and a relentless exam factory.
The cost of living crisis is real. Insecure housing is real. These combined are enormously stressful/traumatic - people don't respond well under stress.
Diversity is real - including neurodiversity -diversity is beautiful.
Schools are at the beginning of adapting to diverse families/children/world. Work respectfully with parents and their families and they'll work with you.

The examples you have given are extreme, of children living in households with abusive/neglectful parents and adverse childhood experiences relating to that.
In those cases, of course it's mainly or even solely the parents and the home environment causing the child's difficulties.Trauma is often mis-labeled as SEN.

However for children not in those sort of situation it is less black and white.
Parenting styles and attitudes, especially pemissive and authoritarian parenting, helicopter parenting and the general personality traits of parents will always likely have an impact on childrens personalities and behaviours aswell, but sometimes things ARE nature rather than nurture, sometimes there ARE genuine SEN such as social emotional and behavioural and sensory needs, and sometimes the school environment DOES really unsupport or trigger these for kids.

They aren’t there to work with 30 childrens’ parents and families. They are educators, not social workers.

Spot on

Children need support to emotionally and socially develop, including communication, through play with adults who are there to support them. Isn't this part of education?

Yes. In the home.

It's a large part of the Early Years Foundation Stage and part of the national curriculum through PSHE - from year 1 up. From year 1 it is not given enough time through PSHE because learning to read, write and do maths to prepare for SATs/other ridiculous & totally useless assessment measures are deemed more important - crushing the arts etc along the way. What is more important than the emotional wellbeing of young people? The national picture in this area is bleak. Prioritise mental and physical health before anything else in education.

That's your job.

I think this is the crux of it. Many parents don’t see things as ‘their job’ that our parents did see as their job.

Social and emotional education? Of course that’s your job as parents! The stuff on this in the EYFS curriculum is supposed to be complementary to what we do as parents, not replace it.

My DCs’ school has swimming lessons as part of the curriculum, my 6 year old’s teacher told me every year fewer and fewer children can get themselves dressed and undressed and this year easily 40% of the class cannot change unaided. At 5/6 years old!! These are NT children.

The general standard of behaviour in the primary school where I taught is also getting a worse.

Some of the main factors are…

Tiredness. Some of the kids are absolutely hanging with exhaustion. When I ask them about it, they always say they were up late gaming. Am amazingly large number seem to put themselves to bed when they feel like it,

Diet. The majority of us would buy ourselves crap from the local shop, but it’d be a chocolate bar or a bag of crisps. Now some kids are swigging down huge bottles of energy drink, family size bags of Haribo etc. That amount of chemicals affects behaviour so negatively.

Parents. The main reason! Not enough consequences for poor behaviour, everyone wants to be their child’s best friend. ‘Please Darling, don’t pull the doggy’s tail, that might make the poor doggy sad, and we wouldn’t want that would’ve sweetie’ etc etc. Sometimes in life there’s time for a swift loud ‘NO!’.

YANBU at all

My daughter is autistic/adhd but some of her behaviour is just a kid pushing their luck, not ND

I've name changed for this but

I have a school mum acquaintance who says her child is suspected adhd - every single day she let's him bring toys to school, every single day school ask her not to let him and every morning he has a huge tantrum in the yard at the teachers whilst mum says "you know the teachers won't let you take them in" and she just stands there and let's the teachers deal with it 🤦‍♀️ I don't stand with her in the mornings anymore as I can't be around it. He behaves badly in other scenarios and she just let's him. There's no consequences at all.

You can see by some of the replies that parents think teachers should parent. IMO, it's devaluing people who have studied for degrees on how to TEACH. Unbelievable.

@JoeTheDrummer completely agree. I think sleep and diet has a lot to answer for. I also think you can tell a lot about a parent by the sleep and food habits they allow their child to have (not including ARFID obviously).

I am a secondary teacher and every morning I am confiscating toys off my year 7.

My oldest son is dyspraxic and dyslexic - both diagnosed. He's probably autistic too but so what really? I am as well. It's not an illness. He is now, ironically, a teacher. Secondary. he has a degree in Philosophy, Theology and Secondary Teaching plus a Masters in Creative Writing.

At no point in his primary or secondary education did we excuse him for behaving badly. Not that he did that often, but put it this way, his primary had a card we got home every week regarding behaviour. They got a gold (great), silver (bit off), red (done something a bit bad) or blank (had really pushed it) and at the end of the year the children with all golds got a medal.

Years later I was clearing out my jewelry box and found 7 gold medals. So I showed him them. He said " are any of them mine?".

I said "no, they're all your wee brother's". 😂

My point is that he behaved badly at times. But we NEVER excused it.

Aw, my youngest is dyspraxic and hypermobile. He gets awful leg pain 😭

I agree, it isn't an illness
Both of mine have behaved badly here and there over the years, but there has always been consequences. A few years ago DD was maybe 8 and lost her temper at school and threatened to stab another child 😭 .... I took her round to his house and got her to apologise to him and his mum and she wasnt allowed to go to her hobby that evening.

Good for you! My son gets awful leg pain too. Just in the one leg. Is that a dyspraxic thing?

Actually, just remembering one time that the DHT called me say that a "few wee boys" had put the plug into the sink in the art room and turned the tap on at the END OF THE DAY. Which, of course, caused chaos and he asked if my son knew anything about it because he thought he might be one of the culprits. I said I would ask him. He denied it but couldn't settle, so I eventually said "you'd be as well just admitting it". So he did. Eventually. But wouldn't name the other "wee boys". So I called the DHT back and told him and guess what he got punished for? Not shopping his pals. 😂

I have taught a lot of kids like this at primary level. It isnt as simple as you make out. That level of behaviour is not caused by the mum not being firm enough. These sound like traumatised children.

I'm a teacher and a parent, luckily neither of my kids have ever been in trouble for behaviour at school. What they have been is overwhelmed by the amount and level of stuff being taught every day. Some children are not able to regulate themselves when there is too much information, unclear communication with their peers, busyness of school life - SEND, neurodiversity or trauma or a combination of both. Their parents don't make excuses, they are usually really apologetic and sad about the impact their child sometimes has on others. They want to help make things better, sometimes they are overwhelmed with other things in their life eg. Debt, domestic violence.

There are only the parents to blame.
The idea of changing school itself because a small proportion of children find it difficult is not reasonable-Also there is no evidence that a different environment would be more successful .
The behaviour of children is almost entirely formed at home,expecting child minders and schools to form behaviour is not reasonable.

Blaming parents is an easy scapegoat; especially if they are poor and don't have much reflective communication.
Children being made to sit down for lengthy periods of the day, without time outside (and in nature!) due to testing arrangements in 2 areas of the curriculum in primary schools is responsible for much of the behaviours we see. Look what happens first hand when you take the same group of children in a P.E. lesson or to a woodland setting. Not moving much is really unhealthy for children in the same way that it contributes to poor health outcomes later in life.
Look at some of our European neighbours; many do not expect children to sit down for lengthy periods of time especially before the age of 7, lots of outdoor learning going on - there are different ways which have much more positive mental health outcomes.

It's oft repeated that "European countries don't start school until 7". First off, the vast majority start at 6. Those that do start at 7 attend highly structured preschool settings (no different to our Reception classes) until then, and many go immediately into very formal schooling, days lasting 8:30-5:00 (albeit with a long lunchbreak), and still relying heavily on "chalk and talk". Behaviour standards are extremely high and there's a lot more testing too.

Children that don't behave or achieve are excluded or held back a year.

It's not all beanbags and outdoor play- that's Finland and Scandinavia but not the rest of Europe.

That's not to say that I'm not very much in favour of outdoor play and active learning. My daughter's primary school is very outdoorsy with weekly forest schools and a child-led curriculum in Reception and Y1, moving to more formal learning in Y2. However, there is no reason why children shouldn't be capable of sitting down and listening, as they do in most of the rest of the world, without causing chaos.