To think that not always, but quite often, it is the parents...

[ImImmortalNowBabyDoll]

I was a teacher for a few years and in the years I taught I saw behaviour getting MUCH worse and parents getting less and less inclined to support teachers.

I saw a facebook post today saying that it's unreasonable to blame parents for children's behaviour in school and it then went on to talk about how hard it is for ND kids to stay regulated at school and it's the fault of "the system" that they can't cope.

There's a family I know with 2 boys who are both constantly in trouble in school. The classroom frequently has to be evacuated because of the younger one's violent outbursts. He's about 8.

I saw him today in the library, running around, ignoring the librarian, and swearing profusely the whole time. They're both always out unsupervised, roaming the streets, and when I see him with his Mum, she speaks to him with the same language he uses for everyone else. Social services had to get involved because she kept smacking them, so now she swears and shouts at them and they hit her, and she asks what she's supposed to do now she's not allowed to hit them back.

I don't know if they are ND, but the problem is that they're barely being parented and when they are, they example being set is dreadful.

I'm a former teacher, although in another country where teachers are respected and the children are generally well disciplined. You couldn't pay me enough to teach here, with the state of parenting, lack of boundaries, etc. No wonder people aren't going into teaching. What a sorry state of affairs, and how sad for the kids who do want to learn in a calm and controlled classroom.

Parenting is very challenging these days, more so than when I was growing up, because the expectations are so much higher. It was fine in the 80s and 90s to feed your kids oven food and plonk them in front of cartoons, but it isn’t now. And most of us don’t have anything like the same extended family support network as was usually available back then. My mum used to leave me with our neighbour, and there’s just no way that would happen now. Can you imagine the reaction on here if someone posted saying a neighbour had asked them to look after their sick child whilst they went to work or something?

I actually feel quite sorry for the mother you refer to OP. She sounds completely overwhelmed, and she is the sole parent. It’s all on her. She shouldn’t shout and smack but she obviously doesn’t know what else to do, and I’d be surprised if there’s a mother alive who doesn’t have some regrets about the way she spoke to/ acted with her children when stressed or under pressure or whatever.

It feels like kicking someone while they’re down. For all we know, she’s doing her best and she needs help rather than judgment.

@MancunianFay But i think this is also a problem. Yiu have to parent the child you have. I have two v different children and its been annoying but I have to parent them differently. I am "lucky" in that the tricky one was first so I didnt have to massively adapt from easy to hard, but my job is to do what's necessary and so I have to put the work in to adapt.

I think the comment re class is only partially right. Probably more accurate in the past. But I suspect its the middle class "gentle" parents who claim their children never do anything wrong who are the most frustrating for teachers these days. The parent who claims their child would never hit or never lie. Or, if they do believe the child did thr damage, blame the teachers for not supervising or giving enough support.

I have seen the type of parenting that OP describes, and rolled my eyes. I don’t deny it exists, but it perpetuates a depressing narrative that all autistic or ADHD kids who are disruptive or rude are badly parented (or “just need a good hiding” as one randomer once said to me).

We knew DS was autistic when he was <1 year old. Diagnosed at the Lorna Wing aged 3. We must have been seriously neglectful parents to fuck him up that quickly but - spoiler alert - we were not. DS’ presentation is one of violence, disruption and zero impulse control. He was expelled from two schools before the age of 6. We don’t swear or fight at home, DS has never even watched television.

His condition has utterly ruined my life, by any objective standard. It is absurd to imply that I could have avoided that outcome with more discipline, consequences and the naughty step. This stuff is not rocket science and is blindingly obvious to most functioning humans.

It does not prevent autism which (for some DC) looks very much like the type of thing you are all complaining about.

Best advice i ever heard: "you are NOT your child's friend. You are their parent. So parent them"

So true, and it's so bewildering.

Not seen a single post bashing single mums. Plenty bashing incompetent parents people have observed not parenting their kids. These tend to be mums for obvious reasons.
Stop projecting.

Yup

Also yup

Except chosing to try to live up to those expectations is on the individual. I have no problem with screens and beige food, I have no problem admitting I have no problem with screens and beige food. I couldn’t give a shit what the MN masses opinion is on that because I have confidence in my ability to raise my kids and the results attest to that. I’m not constantly asking the internet on every little thing, I can make my own decisions and choices and be accountable for them. I’m not trying to appease anyone or project an image for some social media version of myself. Most crucially I have to ability to apply critical to all the online bilge -
especially all the “advice” from MN.

'Mrs Tilscher's class'

Question remains the same though,.... where are the dads? Barely any mentions or criticism towards fathers.

I would agree though that single mums do often havr a lot more challenges to overcome, which makes being a good parent harder. I am very conscious that one of the reasons I can adapt for ds is because I have dh backing me up, giving me a break etc. Sil, on the other hand, had a useless dp who was emotionally and verbally abusive ans a shit dad and when he left, the abuse didnt stop and the he disappeared for a while so she had the extra challenge of having to deal with traumatised children. So yes, shes not a great parent vut also yes, she has a lot more challenges.

In the 70s those naughty kids - usually boys -were sent to bad lads school. The next step was crime and prison cos they learnt young that they were excluded, thick and not welcome.
Similarly in the good ol days those naughty kids got removed from their parents and put into nice, possibly churchy/almost definitely white/2 parent families - put up for adoption/fostering.
The 50s 60s 70s kids were frightened, ruled at school and home by fear. If kids were neurodiverse then, or a bit slow, they were physically beaten/shamed/shunned.

Mums are now getting the blame for "poor parenting" whilst teacher parents - also usually mums unless you're a head - are on the verge of cracking up whilst teaching in a system that is over loaded and a relentless exam factory.
The cost of living crisis is real. Insecure housing is real. These combined are enormously stressful/traumatic - people don't respond well under stress.
Diversity is real - including neurodiversity -diversity is beautiful.
Schools are at the beginning of adapting to diverse families/children/world. Work respectfully with parents and their families and they'll work with you.

The problem is also parents also believe there will be no consequences and their child can do what they want.
we had one child in secondary who was CONSTANTLY in trouble, non stop. Mum would come in, shrug, say what can I do blah blah. Was told eventually he would hit the threshold for PermEx if he continued.
Day of PEx meeting she came in, shrugging. Afterwards she looked as if she’d been hit by a truck, she didn’t think it would happen even though she had been told over and over. ‘What am I meant to do with him now’.

I know there’s a big issue between primary and secondary now. Primaries, I count DDs in this, will allow lots of behaviours to go unpunished. Some of those children will even be rewarded as incentive to behave, it doesn’t work. A boy in her class fully punched another boy in the head, the response, was to pick him to represent the school on a special treat (he was sent home after an hour). The mum had to go in and threaten the police, OFSTED, for them to do anything about it.

A decade ago transition week was no issue, now multiple children will have to be sent back to primaries as they come with the ‘you can’t tell me off’ attitude. All the little shits from DDs primaries who were treated with cotton gloves all got thrown out of secondary school in year 7.

I work in schools in a mental health role. There are many challenges for both parents and children and consequently school staff. We are recognising SEN better but that doesn’t mean we are supporting parents better with the SEN that is either diagnosed or suspecting. In many areas a diagnosis is the end, unless an ehcp can be applied for and then there will be some support in school for the child. There is very little support for parenting or little uptake of it when it is offered. I offer and deliver parenting support and encouraging parents to try out the things we discuss in group is very challenging. I spend time thinking about barriers, explaining rationale, sharing case studies and success stories but it’s not osmosis.

Parents are exhausted, switched off, trying to hold it all together and sometimes the thing they drop is boundaries and attention. Lack of boundaries and minimal purposeful attention are a dreadful combination for children. They learn early on that attention is the aim and whether that is positive or negative and how they need to get that is arbitrary. They are seeking connection, security and attachment.

how do we fix things? Sadly I wonder how and when it will become better, social care can’t get involved in the majority of cases as threshold isn’t met and they are overwhelmed. Schools aren’t often backed up by boundaries and structure at home and so anything they do to support becomes ineffective over time. Children aren’t learning from their parents what a parenting relationship should look like, so who do they replicate?

I spoke to a teenager this week who told me his parents aren’t encouraging him to revise for his exams, but he wishes they would. How he interprets their actions and the long term implications is going to be damaging.

Teaching our kids resilience and regulation goes a hugely long way, throw in positive attention and boundaries and all kids can thrive to the best of their ability.

Expectations from who? The internet?
Set your own expectations. And plenty of neighbours still look after children. Why would you care what people on MN think? Perhaps if parents got off the internet and parented their children without worrying what others think, things would be different.

The problem is that too many people diagnose rather than discipline. “Charlie can’t be told no because he has ASD”, “Mabel has ADHD so she can’t help screaming at the top of her lungs in the garden”.

I think theres some truth to the adhd kids were always there.
But the whole education system in uk and the nhs are crap at the moment and its affecting the other kids.
High levels of sen /neglect etc etc mean the teachers cant enforce behaviour plus obviously stopping many punishments at home and school.
Governments stopping exclusion and funding sen school.

its obvious kids copy - parents, other kids.
of 60 kids in reception. At least 6 have asd diagnosis. Whereas only 3 had obvious issues at reception age. Some of the behaviour has affected the other kids.
I dont think many of the kids would have struggled so much with better education/social and supervision at school.
Smaller year groups and classes. But mostly quicker diagnosis etc. Also excusing everything in an asd or adhd isnt helpful either.
My adhd child needs much closer supervision than he has had at state school.
Im not saying necessarily much stricter but picking up on the adhd traits, stopping the worst, engaging them in the lesson.

Even my 10yo is now observing the teacher doesnt care if they dont do reading when they are supposed to. But that is how it starts with avoiding.

Smacking is about the worst thing you can do for your kids behaviour. Did you not see further up where I said the boys that inspired this thread were smacked all the time, it just made them much worse.

And as for the elderly gentleman, how patronising can you get? It wasn't up to you to wade in as a crusader. And why you think you should sit in a place previously occupied by a teen just because you're older, I have no idea.

This thread isn't about hating teenagers or elderly people who don't perform frailty in the correct way, and it's definitely not about assaulting children.

I was the test year for Y6 SATs 32 years ago, so they have been around “properly” for 31 years. My kids do baking, DT and art at school. In fact, the school has invested a load of money in art therapy for the ones who “struggle to behave”. They have two breaks and lunch in the Infants, and one longer break plus lunch in the juniors. This is the same as it was when I was at school. I agree with others that parents and parenting have changed more than schools.

1. Agree overall, but worked perfectly for me.
2. Agree in principle, but I often wade in as a crusader, especially when I see awful things, like on that bus.
3. I am not hating them, I despite them, you misunderstood.

I was on a bus a few weeks ago where a toddler was being allowed to run up and down the aisle and the driver pulled over and refused to move until the toddler was under the control of an adult. Good on him.

Despite isn't a verb and if you meant despise it's a synonym of hate.

I highly doubt your children are perfect and I also highly doubt they wouldn't have been better if you hadn't hit them.

I have teens at school regularly telling me "I like you miss because you can control us"
Children love firm but fair boundaries , firm sanctions and joyfully given fair praise . It's not hard. Schools need to give teachers more teeth

I'm a primary school teacher. Behaviour is definitely getting worse. Teachers are scared to say 'boo' to a child without the parents putting in a formal complaint. There was a post on here about a parent complaining that her child's class ate their lunch outside, there was another post where a teacher took break time off a child and posters were up in arms. It's the one job where people think they can come in and tell you how to do your job. We would never dream of telling a dentist, a doctor or a lawyer what to do but parents think they know better than teachers all the time and I think social media has a big part to play in that. Kids aren't taught to respect authority and they know there will be little or no consequences at home. Not the case in your scenario OP but definitely the reasons why lots of kids are challenging. It is a really tough job. Crowd control and constant criticism and being made to feel you are not good enough mostly by people who have never taught before and have no experience of managing 30 children with vastly different learning abilities and needs.