To think that not always, but quite often, it is the parents...

[ImImmortalNowBabyDoll]

I was a teacher for a few years and in the years I taught I saw behaviour getting MUCH worse and parents getting less and less inclined to support teachers.

I saw a facebook post today saying that it's unreasonable to blame parents for children's behaviour in school and it then went on to talk about how hard it is for ND kids to stay regulated at school and it's the fault of "the system" that they can't cope.

There's a family I know with 2 boys who are both constantly in trouble in school. The classroom frequently has to be evacuated because of the younger one's violent outbursts. He's about 8.

I saw him today in the library, running around, ignoring the librarian, and swearing profusely the whole time. They're both always out unsupervised, roaming the streets, and when I see him with his Mum, she speaks to him with the same language he uses for everyone else. Social services had to get involved because she kept smacking them, so now she swears and shouts at them and they hit her, and she asks what she's supposed to do now she's not allowed to hit them back.

I don't know if they are ND, but the problem is that they're barely being parented and when they are, they example being set is dreadful.

That is desperately sad and the thought of that happening to my little girl (6) is horrific. I guess that shows that underneath it all, I'm a 2026 parent and not a 1970s one because I would have been in the school giving the teacher the same back.

I'm very much against corporal punishment of any type, but I think that when children are brought up in an environment where there's no respect or secure boundaries, the only way to control them in a school environment is fear, and they don't have that now. The solution is NOT to start hitting them again, in case my words get misunderstood.

I think that in many cases it's just weak parenting, and in some cases it's just a troubled child who needs help.

Unfortunately I think the difficulties in determining the difference between the two means the families who really need the (expensive) help often lose out.

If you don't know if they're ND why have you even brought that into this post?

Well sometimes it's a troubled child who needs help because they have horrible parents. In fact, I'd say that's a lot of cases. And even if they are removed from the parents or the parents somehow improve, the trauma and damage done in the early years will remain.

But if you read my post, you would have seen that I explicitly wrote that we set boundaries for our children. You're right, you shouldn't compare me to your friend, as no two situations are the same.

Teacher too agree total. Going to be brutal here. Kids are more and more feral these days parents with don't give a damn or parents don't t respect teachers so their kids don't or it's the parents who think their little pumpkin can do no wrong.
Parents parent your children, we are here to educate

Because the video I saw earlier today was saying that behaviour problems aren't caused by parents but by ND kids being unable to cope in an unmanageable environment, i.e. the fault of the system. It seems to be the go-to every time poor behaviour comes up in schools. There's no longer any such thing as just a naughty child who needs proper parenting. My feeling is that being ND in and of itself is rarely the full explanation for a child who is completely out of control and in some cases ND isn't even part of the picture. There are going to be some kids who genuinely cannot deal with mainstream school and the lack of places at special schools and meaningful support is a travesty. But there's also a heck of a lot of NT kids, or ND kids who DO have the capacity to cope if the expectations were in place at home, who are just not being parented properly.

I’m sorry but this is nonsense. 1, it’s going to vary massively from family; 2, counting sleeping hours is ridiculous; 3, many homes have parents who work full time so kids will be in wraparound care.

When my 4 year old goes to school in September he’ll be in school around 40% of his waking hours on a school week and he won’t even be in full wraparound care. That probably goes down to 32% over the year when you take into account holidays.

This isn’t an argument for it being the teachers fault, I’m just saying I don’t agree with your calculation.

I have this theory that you can chart parenting vs children on an x / y axis.

So on the x axis you have quality of parenting and on the y axis you have how difficult the child is to parent. So easy child, great parent, obviously lands up with a child in the top right corner, with a bunch of variations according to how good/bad the parent is or how easy/difficult the child is, with the bottom left being very difficult child, very poor parent.

Inevitably, children who are ND are almost always more difficult to parent, but parenting quality makes a difference. And poor parents aren't necessarily abusive, neglectful or mean - sometimes they have the best of intentions, they're just not very good. I put SIL 100% into this category. she has all the love in the world for her children, but she's not a good parent and DN is 100% a more difficult child, with a tougher life path, as a result. And this started early. As an example, as a toddler, he was very high energy. But she just would not/could not make herself (and exBIL was the same) to get out of the house. So he'd get more and more cooped up, more and more over the top, things would be broken etc etc and she'd turn up at our house with an over tired, over stimulated child at 5pm and say things like, "I don't know what to do with him - he just won't sit still, he's driving me mad." We have similar aged children and we'd suggest meeting up, going to the park, getting out together..... and nope, it just would not happen unless we agreed to meet at 3pm or whatever. And frankly, that didn't work for us because OUR DS (who, unsurprisingly, has ADHD), needed to be out the house way earlier than that and would usually be home, chilling by then because he needed that downtime.

Well sleeping hours absolutely do count because making sure your kids are getting enough sleep is a very big contributor to how they behave in school.

And sadly, poor parenting often continues long after bedtime.

I had a child in my class who had broken his bed in a tantrum and was sleeping on the sofa, but was frequently turfed off the sofa at 3am when his Dad came in drunk.

Ok, it just feels like you're conflating two issues and I don't understand the link

Some parents are bad parents - irrespective of whether their kids are ND.

Many ND kids can't cope in mainstream schools - irrespective of whether they have good or bad parents

I have an autistic son. I am honestly astounded at some of the parenting I see, especially amongst parents of ND children. I don’t get it at all. More than anyone else my son needs a clear routine and clear boundaries. So he thrives off rules and routine. He does find school challenging at times but he knows how to behave and consequences to actions. He’s 6. I feel like it can be harder to parent ND children but I also feel parents use it as an excuse far too much.

That's an excellent theory, very well explained. I agree completely.

I probably should admit that we do have two fairly easy kids. The older one is AuDHD and super chill, a bit too chill sometimes. The younger one is a firecracker and very strong willed but she's got a very sweet nature and is eager to please. They couldn't be more different but I couldn't describe either as "hard", they just need different approaches.

Um no actually.

Making my ND child do things nearly killed her.

ND varies a lot, your child doesn’t speak for every ND child.

No, it's not me conflating them.

It's that there's a lot of rhetoric, online and off, that bad behaviour is always caused by ND and the parents have nothing to do with it.

I'm saying that in a large number of cases of bad behaviour, the issue is caused by bad parenting, and this applies to both ND and NT kids. I can't say which category those boys fall into but I think they would be much better behaved if they were better parented.

Scum are allowed to breed. Leaving aside the issue of ND, it's hardly surprising that they raise scummy kids. It, unfortunately,is the way of the world. And it's getting worse.

I would say I'm quite a strict parent based on these criteria, limited screentime, bedtimes, routine, consequences (remove screentime). I am a polite and quiet person. One of mine behaves beautifully in all situations outside home. The other one genuinely finds it hard to sit still and listen. He's very bright and not visibly different in any other way so it does really look like he's just not trying or is being disrespectful or rude. But after lecturing him week in week out in relation to a hobby about the importance of listening to the leader and sitting still while waiting for his turn, showing respect etc etc I came to the conclusion that he just physically really struggles to sit still if he hasn't got a task to occupy him. He has a diagnosis of ADHD. The other night he had his light turned off around 8pm and was crying at 11pm because he couldn't get to sleep and that has happened a few times recently. He was probably tired and cranky the next day at school but I have no idea what else I could do to make him sleep....I find it mortifying when he misbehaves but there is a limit to how much I can do about it when I'm not actually there.

I think that you've actually highlighted a good point.

20 years ago, the classrooms had lots of ND kids who were like your son- a bit fidgety, easily distracted, perhaps quick to anger, but aware of the importance of making an effort. Now, the same kids that once upon a time would have been out of their seat at the wrong time or shouting out instead of putting up their hand are flinging chairs, sexually assaulting people, and requiring evacuation of classrooms, because they are not being taught at home how to behave.

Also I think if we had a graph we would need a third axis for external support vs pressures. Eg if someone has lots of family support vs is also trying to support elderly relatives or is navigating toxic family dynamics. Or if someone is in unstable or overcrowded housing. Or financially stable vs struggling to make ends meet. Those factors inevitably do make it easier vs trickier to parent effectively.

Agree. Not always but often.

Like oh my child (usually boy) must have ADHD as he can’t sit or regulate but then is fed utter crap (in one case a red bull and rice paper for breakfast) allowed completely unsurprised and unlimited access to PlayStation with violent games for hours on end so doesn’t sleep and wonders why he struggles so much. Poor kid was only 8 but parents more interested in getting a label than doing hard parenting

When I was a kid in the 70s & 80s, Scottish schools were the envy of the UK. Can’t say the same now.

I remember some kids who were a bit cheeky to the teacher but there was never any aggro or violence in the classroom.

We had big classes back then, too, so I don’t think that is part of today’s problems. My daughter in law is a teacher and I do worry about the things she experiences as part of her work. She tells me some parents will not have a word said against their little devils and how unsupportive of education some of them are. I don’t really know who or what else to blame for badly behaved, nasty, cheeky, lazy etc kids other than their parents. Parenting has changed so much and I’m not sure it’s all been for the better.

Feckless parenting.

I have never encountered anyone like you describe, or seen a post that fits this profile you describe.

You really do have to be a parent of a child who is Autistic, with say a PDA profile and I assure you,.behind doors, it is a world you could never comprehend. The rates of illness and diagnosable PTSD in mothers of such children is something to go research. There's a reason for this. The stress is incomprehensible. It is not akin to a difficult teenager.

I do feel there's a problem where parents are afraid or feel powerless to manage phones/ social media access. This is not helping imo.

Schools are not well set up for the different needs of kids these days. It is one of the most exhausting and often illness inducing experiences to be a parent in this situation. I have often told friends, try it for a week and get back to me.

When my uncle was small in the 70s he started acting up at home a bit, he was about 8 and started testing the limits. My Gran was worried and asked his class teacher whether he’d also been misbehaving at school/ if anything was happening there to cause it. The teacher told her that children who feel safe at home act out there and are well behaved in school (as my uncle was) but the opposite is true when they act out at school and it’s those children he worries about. I think there’s some logic there personally.

Of course some kids probably act out in both places. I witness piss poor parenting fairly often. Either parents shouting and swearing at their very small children or the ones who just delicately say something like “Paul please stop” and do fuck all to stop Paul terrorising everyone.

As the parent of an autistic son, it drives me insane when any/all "bad" behaviour is immediately put down to being ND. I feel like from there it's only a small jump to just assuming ND = bad behaviour, which feeds into "I don't want my child labelled" rhetoric.

My son isn't perfect, he struggles with social cues, sleep, food etc. But he kind, polite, gentle and curious. He is a rule follower, to a fault at times. He has never been in trouble at school and finds disruptive behaviour from others really hard to cope with.

I'm not smug, I know it's not down to us being "perfect parents" (we're not) and I know if you've met one ND child, you've met ONE ND child. But we've worked hard to help our son, we've fought hard for support and advice and basically contorted out lives around ensuring he's supported and learning ways to teach him how to regulate, navigate, etc.

Unfortunately I also know from personal experience there are parents who don't do anything to help their kids behaviour - sometimes saying they think it's ADHD or whatever, but not taking any steps to actually help. It's very frustrating.