To think that not always, but quite often, it is the parents...

[ImImmortalNowBabyDoll]

I was a teacher for a few years and in the years I taught I saw behaviour getting MUCH worse and parents getting less and less inclined to support teachers.

I saw a facebook post today saying that it's unreasonable to blame parents for children's behaviour in school and it then went on to talk about how hard it is for ND kids to stay regulated at school and it's the fault of "the system" that they can't cope.

There's a family I know with 2 boys who are both constantly in trouble in school. The classroom frequently has to be evacuated because of the younger one's violent outbursts. He's about 8.

I saw him today in the library, running around, ignoring the librarian, and swearing profusely the whole time. They're both always out unsupervised, roaming the streets, and when I see him with his Mum, she speaks to him with the same language he uses for everyone else. Social services had to get involved because she kept smacking them, so now she swears and shouts at them and they hit her, and she asks what she's supposed to do now she's not allowed to hit them back.

I don't know if they are ND, but the problem is that they're barely being parented and when they are, they example being set is dreadful.

Another teacher here, yes. We urgently need parenting support in this country, it's absolutely crazy to me that anyone can have a shag, pop out a kid and there's absolutely nothing to support them or teach them about child development.

I remember being at a playground and my DD waiting patiently for a go on the swing. The parent was panicking as her child was on the swing & she actually said to me, sorry if I take her off she'll scream & I was so annoyed - how else will the child learn about taking turns?

Thats not the only time I've seen a parent be scared in case their child kicks off.

You see it on here, people defending the indefensible under the banner of "you don't know what's going on so don't judge"
MOST students are just average normal kids , who don't need special support ( they won't get it when they leave school) so let's equip them to be a functioning member of society who can be happy. Making kids feel like everyone is the enemy and they never do anything wrong means the transition to adulthood is going to be even tougher (are they going to fight every parking ticket, make a complaint of they fail their driving test, have their mum ring up to ask why they didn't get the job etc etc etc)

Parents scared of either their own children or other people’s perceived judgments is a common theme on MN.

Oh but that’s the schools job now, didn’t you get the memo?

So many parents aren't parenting because they are addicted to their phones. They shove a screen in the kids face to get the kid to leave them alone.

My son used to have the most outrageous temper tantrums. He would, quite literally, throw himself to the floor at my feet and roll back and forth screaming. Once, we were in the house when he did this and I was busy so I stepped over him and kept going. He stopped screaming, got up, ran the alternate route through the kitchen, intercepted me, threw himself down on the floor and starting screaming again. It was so funny, I laughed so hard my legs gave way.

Anyway, he works in a government ministry now.

Yup! At least I'm trying to raise DS right, his 'father' hasn't seen him in over the year and demanded a DNA test when I went to the CMS for child maintenance (despite being there when DS was born.)

I acknowledge it’s a small frame but I think I have seen a lot in our school and beyond that the behaviour expectations for girls and boys seem very different. There seems to be a lot of ‘boys will be boys’ and that combined with additional needs has caused a bit of carnage re behaviour at our school. Recently one young boy assaulted a teacher to the extent she had to go on long-term sick for 3 months. He was only suspended for a day. Girls seem to be used to modify and police the behaviour of some of the more challenging boys in the class etc. I’m not saying it is every boy or that every girl is an angel because that isn’t true at all but there is enough of a gap for it to be noticeable.

I took my eldest out at the end of primary to go to an all girls school because it was clear she wasn’t getting a decent education and was stressed out of her mind. The difference in behaviour was a shock. It is basically such a complete non-issue. No traffic light systems, no shouting, no residual stress. They all largely just crack on without the constant low level or high level disruption you might be getting in a class of 30 in a normal state. My daughter has said she’d get the same amount of work done in 1-2 hours at her new school that she’d have done in a week before. The level of inequality in environment and experience is massive.

AHH nothing like another parent bashing thread to start my day!! My year at school in the 90s was apparently the worst year the school had ever seen (overheard a couple teacher chatting) and how kids were getting worse! This was the 90s! Have to say when I was on Facebook many grew up and had good jobs etc. Since the decline in discipline in schools, there was a rise in terrible behaviour, I think we forget how terrible kids were too years ago with joyriders and kids with asbos splashed all over the news.

Have no answers, just wanted to make the point that I don't think kids are getting worse, we just forget and look back with rose tinted glasses a little. I also don't think we give a lot of young children and teenagers the credit they deserve, we only tend to hear the negative. My daughter's classes she does, there are kids of all ages and teenagers and they are a lovely bunch.

But surely the reason parents can’t cope is “the system”. Do you remember Sure Start centres? When I was a child my mum was paid by social services to support families like this in their homes. Services like that just don’t exist, and parents are stuck in situations with no support.
I used to work as a TA, and honestly blaming parents for everything really winds me up. Of course the woman isn’t parenting properly, but how is the system supporting her? It’s not.
And also, schools are sooooo different now. I think some teachers can get caught up in the idea that school is the best place. For some children it just isn’t. My dc has been out of a school a lot, and I am sure school thinks it’s my parenting. I’m not denying all responsibility, but school policies, processes, transitions have been a massive part of it, and school denies all of their part in it because it works for most pupils, therefore it must be my dc.
it’s NEVER as simple as “it’s the parents”

Hi I’m sorry my post was on wrong thread so I wasn’t responding to anything you’ve said earlier on the thread. Sorry to hear about your daughter’s learning disability

A previous poster mentioned classism - middle class teachers looking down on working class parents. I dont believe that to be the case as teachers are seeing the effects of poor parenting across all sections of society. I am a working class teacher - all of my pupils have SEND and pupils come from a wide range of backgrounds. I am very sympathetic to pupils/families who come from poorer homes and have lots of barriers to overcome (SS involvement, drugs, prison etc). Some of the pupils with the good behaviour come from working class families trying their best. We have some very affluent parents who have the attitude that the school will handle everything and teachers are basically spoken to like 'staff'; I am less sympathetic to this attitude and it does their child no favours if boundaries are only put in place at school.

Retired teacher here. I’ve seen so many parents who are afraid of their own children. They won’t tackle bad behaviour or challenge them. They often resort to telling them off without conviction and the kids quickly pick that up and play on it.
Kids who repeatedly came to school with no pen or other basic equipment or no tie or wearing trainers - I’ve heard parents say “Oh well I ask him EVERY morning’have you got a pen? Make sure you wear shoes’”
I wanted to say “ Parenting is active you lazy sod. Do your job properly!”

My parenting is far from perfect, I’d never claim it was but my DC have never once been in trouble at school. I have 5 and my eldest is 16. They’re all completely different in terms of interests and personalities but the one thing they have in common is behaving well at school (and home to be honest).

People always say “I don’t know how you cope with 5 kids” but I honestly just don’t struggle whatsoever. They’re all polite, mild mannered, respectful and we all bumble along together well. I’ve raised them with hard boundaries - I don’t believe in wishy washy “I’m your friend” parenting. I never shout, I’d never hit but if I need to be firm then I will be.

My youngest has SEN and so he comes with a few difficulties but the toughest is the lack of a sense of danger. That is naff all to do with my parenting, it’s a sensory issue apparently. If he sees something he’s interested in, he’ll just run to it even if that means running across a road. He’s terrifying at times but that’s the only thing I have to deal with. He’s calm, chilled, doesn’t have “meltdowns”, pretty much never cries and I’ve been told that’s down to our parenting which I can believe. He certainly doesn’t get violent as some children with SEN do. Again, could be pot luck or could be decent parenting.

I don’t know how he’d act with different parents - the shouty sweary type. For example he has speech delay but can read fluently and has a reading age of 8 at 5. Would he be this way without parents who read constantly? I don’t know. So yes, parenting pays a huge part imo.

I think it's also easy to forget that, because people are having children later in life and we are able to keep much more premature babies alive nowadays, a higher percentage of children have neurological issues that affect behaviour. And that until the 90s, the harder children to support in school were often not in school, or were sidelined and "kept busy" away from the majority of the school. When I was in school in the 70s and 80s, when younger there was always a class for the kids who were slower, or just couldn't behave and when older, they often just truanted a lot. Nowadays schools aren't allowed to give up on kids in that way.

This.

Less support in the form of sure start centres. Less help with how to manage normal kid behaviours. Social media "soundbites" don't really help, other than to increase the guilt, especially when it doesn't work straight away.

Going further back, less "free roaming" - playing outside, cycling for hours, coming back for meals/bed. This definitely managed a lot of ADHD kids back in the day (although in the case of my grandfather also meant his mother had no idea of all of the mischief he got up to)

Less of a village at all.

We have parents who don't have support from their own parents or other family members, for a multitude of reasons. Who can't send their kids out to play alone because it's not safe. Who are doing their best with the resources they have - which is often a screen. And screens do regulate ND kids, albeit not always in the best way for them, but it does make feeling utterly unsupported and overwhelmed as a parent.

There are, and always have been, bad parents. But a lot of parents are doing the best with what they have, but they're drowning, and kids are suffering.

I was thinking about this in relation to the child rapist boys who just got off scott free. Apparently their feckless revolting parents cried with relief in court that the violent rapist children they raised werent given custodial sentences. Personally I think not only should the boys be imprisoned so should their parents.

I had the same experience of racism being an English child in a Scottish primary school. Also the same experience of physical punishment. I was smacked across the knuckles with a ruler for writing in the cursive script I had been taught in Wales instead of the simple letters they were being taught in Scotland.

Like you, I have no recollection of any disruptive behaviour in a classroom in the 60s and 70s. I don't recall anyone being excluded either, or of anyone dropping out through being unable to cope.

What i do know it's that many kids who went home from school saying that they had been punished for anything at school would be punished again at home. And no parent would ever go into school to complain about it. Our parents were of a generation who were sent out to work at 14, and knew that education was both e privilege and a passport to a better life.

Not just the parents, I am afraid, but us. Us, overall - a wider social community. Nobody says anything - and here on MN - 'how dare she/he say anything to your children? Put her/him in her/his place'. I heartily disagree. Yesterday in NationWide, a long queue. A father is queueing up, a (4-year old?) child sprawled on two seats (three available) with his feet on one of them. Nobody says anything - I do. 'Don't put your dirty trainers on the seat. People will sit here'. Father does not say a word, gives me major side eye. Several months ago, on the bus I cause a scene - daytime, teenagers occupied all the flip seats, an 80-year old (?) is swaying in the isle between, his wife next to him. First I stare at the teens, no reaction from them. Then, loudly, I say 'please give up your seat for this gentleman'. The teens (two of them) immediately do and get up - AND THE OLD SWAYING MAN, who could barely stand up straight, says 'no, thank you, I don't need a seat'. His wife pipes in 'he finds it more comfortable to stand, after the operation'. I am embarrassed, red in the face and mumble 'then I shall sit down, boys, I am so much older than you.' Two stops down, most teens pour out of the bus and the old swaying bastard sits down, so does his wife. I look at them in disbelief, they say nothing. I look at other passengers, they say nothing. So I say 'sorry, but you said you did not want to sit down just now, that after the operation, etc. etc. when I asked the boys to give you a seat? ' The man is quiet, his wife says 'Aye, dear, we just did not want to cause a scene'. I despise that old man and his wife more than I despise the swine-like teenagers with no manners and no heart.

Obviously, there are exceptions to every single rule in the world, and I assumed people would realise that here I am talking about non-SEN children who are still the majority in schools. Here are the calculations I did:
There are 365 days in a year…..start off at 365
52 weekends =104…..so days at school goes down 261 because of weekends
Holidays - 2+1+2+1+6+1=13x5=65……196
Bank holidays - 2…..so down to 194
194 days, of which 7 hours are at school, 17 at home….7/24 x194=57
57 is 15% of 365.
So you are in school 15% of the time, and out of school 85% of the time.

Well my dad for example was way naughtier than we ever were ( silent generation)
Caught scrumping apples by climbing into neighbours gardens , taking their soft fruit too like raspberries and strawberries.
Playing ding dong dash , taking someone’s bike and riding it round .
smoking , nicking sweets , giving adults cheek .
getting into scraps with other boys etc
The difference was that other adults would also discipline or grab by the arm and they’d get marched back to their parents who’d deal with them .
And even my generation I’d see other parents deal with kids who weren’t their own .
Nowadays would we dare do that ???

Smacking was done away with and it is a great big mistake. Not beating, not anything horrible, just normal smacking on the bum. Not with a wooden spoon, like in Derry Girls, just a smack on the bum. And a stern, clear 'no'. Works wonders. Worked for me with dc, with the dog. Universal in its application. Sometimes one or two smacks is enough to last a life-time. Children understand what dignity is and remembering that one smack, they will be deterred from misbehaviour by the memory of this smack associated with a particular person, so I found a stern look was enough to deter.

Yesterday, whilst out in the beautiful sunshine, I saw a Mum pushing a buggy. The handle had a phone holder attached. If you are unable to take your baby for a walk in the sunshine without being glued to your phone there is no hope.

I've had a lot of criticism in the past about my parenting, mostly from people my own age. One mum actually told me that I was abusive, after she asked me what time my DC went to bed and I said 7pm. They were about 1 and 4 at the time and they got up at 5am without fail. As they got older she also used to say "I wouldn't do that to my child" after seeing me have quite firm boundaries on food, bed, and learning to read and some maths. As my child got to teens I have also had comments from parents in my DC's class about my DC and my parenting.

In contrast, at parents evening I got told by the head, deputy head and other teachers that my DC were polite, worked hard, had talent and were thriving academically. I was once told that I have firm boundaries, that are quite wide, and let my DC bounce around in them. I've never once heard my DC mention that they are anxious or depressed.

I now teach DC and yes, I would say that most of the poor behaviour I see in DC is due to poor boundaries and lack of discipline.