To ask how many times you have seen anyone wearing a niqab (full face veil revealing eyes) or burqa (full face veil with mesh cover for eyes)?

[Jane379]

I've seen recent talk on UK Reddit about banning them, and I think we should, for several reasons, but I also think in some ways banning is easy but actually integrating people leading a very conservative Muslim lifestyle is much harder, and should be the main discussion.
European countries that have banned found not many women wore them. What about here? Some estimates say 1%-2% of Muslim women, but we don't really know.

I live in S London in an area with quite a few Muslims and have only seen about 10 niqab wearers in my life. Most in more central areas. I've never seen anyone wearing a burqa.

How typical is this?

Yes, Oxford Street is also one of the main places I've seen them.

Why should it be deleted?

There's good reasons to ban. For one thing, facial expressions are how we communicate : a lot of people, me included, find it innately disturbing for someone to have their face covered, no matter how friendly/harmless they may be.

This is what I worry. Maybe in some areas where people don't see many, women aren't going out at all if they wear them.

A thought : do bans means that such women stay at home and don't go out?

I don't think turbans are the same though (nor are hijabs for that matter).
A niqab or burqa hides facial expressions which many find worrying at best.

I found it goady 🤷‍♀️ - each to their own, i can imagine you had a terrible time during the pandemic

Yes, I've also read a few testimonies from young women in more liberal Muslim countries like Tunisia that wearing a veil means hiding looks they're insecure about and preventing bullying or comparison on that basis. A sad reason but may be the case for some. Alternatively, it may be to try to avoid harassment.

Agree re it being a rebellion in some cases , too, if parents are more liberal.

Very few in Scotland. In fact I can't remember the last time I saw anyone. I saw a couple of women in T5 at Heathrow but they could well have been foreigners returning home.

I see what you mean re precedent but it doesn't seem to have had ill effects in the European countries which have passed bans.

That makes sense if you live in heavily Muslim areas.
BTW, the skullcaps observant Jewish men wear are kippahs : though fewer are wearing them right now due to anti Semitism rising..

You're not at fault! Humans are wired to look for facial clues as to mood etc, so it's natural to be worried if those are not visible..people in societies where it's really common get used to it, I suppose.

It doesn't help that niqabs are usually black. It's fine to wear black of course but traditionally Western culture has given veiled black figures scary associations.

None yet in my tiny market town, but loads when I lived in London - mainly in the West End, Knightsbridge and parts of East London. Also got used to them in Birmingham, and I haven't been there for 20 years so imagine it's more widespread now.

I would support a ban on face coverings. You'd need exceptions for things like motorcyclists while using their bikes, medical needs, etc. But facial expression's a huge part of communication and integration. There are reasons why criminals hide their faces and police/military are told to remove sunglasses when interacting with the public.

I think it's hard to say it's a choice when someone has been raised to believe that they don't actually have a choice and that it would be wrong and sinful to not make this particular 'choice'. This type of extreme face covering doesn't have a place in a civilised, modern society, in my opinion. I'd love to see them banned, but I doubt it will happen. Too many people are too scared to take a stand.

East Anglia here. Niqab wearing seems to be more prevalent recently. I see them now several days a week.

Facial expressions are not how we communicate. We communicate primarily through words. Spoken or written.

OP, are you Muslim? If not, why do you think you are best placed to have an opinion on the matter? Why does it enter your head to even have a stance on this?

This is not Afghanistan, we do not have laws in this country forcing women to cover up. We do, however, have laws protecting freedom of religion.

If a woman wants to practice her religion and part of that is wearing certain clothes then she is free to do that. What gives you the right to suggest otherwise?

If you have conducted widespread research by talking to the Niqab/Burqa wearing community who have said that they feel oppressed, would welcome government support and would be grateful if you could be their spokesperson, then I do apologise!

I was just thinking about the pandemic! (I still mask up in crowded places, btw.) A lot of people got really upset about not being able to see faces, even though it was partial coverage. Lip-readers were screwed. Some little studies showed that many of us increased our upper face mobility and vocal intonations to compensate.

To me, this supports the view that reading faces is central to effective socialisation - it's hard-wired, not just in humans but most other mammals. It's normal and natural to mistrust those who deliberately hide their faces.

Covering or hiding the face in shame is a universal human behaviour across all known cultures. I do not support any system that imposes a mark of shame on all women.

I see what you mean...this point though:

' I think it's hard to say it's a choice when someone has been raised to believe that they don't actually have a choice and that it would be wrong and sinful to not make this particular 'choice''

• by this logic a lot of things various religions teach deprive people of choices since not believing is a sin, various other things will be sins.

Imo I'd argue even if it is a choice, that doesn't mean there aren't good reasons to ban it. Need to see facial expressions, for one. There's Haredi Jewish (the strictest group, a small minority) women who shave all their hair and wear wigs to ensure no man apart from their husband can see their hair. I don't think that's a positive practice either but I wouldn't ban it because it isn't impeding facial expressions. I could think of other examples : hijabs, for one.

This exactly!

So in your opinion non-Muslims shouldn't have a view on any Muslim practice? Or any other religious practice in a religion they're not part of? By that logic, we couldn't criticise any unethical religious practice (polygamy, child marriage, FGM)

'Facial expressions are not how we communicate. We communicate primarily through words. Spoken or written.'- facial expressions are primal. Humans had them long before spoken language.

How is it racist? I don't think it's good for anyone to wear this.

The issue is first : do women want to wear this? And if yes, they still have responsibilities to wider society. Perhaps most in the UK would agree with Angela Merkel when she said 'Showing your face is part of our way of life.'

I live in south London. You see a few women wearing a niqab, none to my recollection in a burqa.

Lots of women in hijabs every day - I know you didn’t ask this but it’s vastly more
common where I live.

I agree re Sarkozy. The panic over the burkini was really weird, and yes, I think some women were forced to remove clothes. Awful. Probably didn't help integration..

It's ironic as in the 1950s when the bikini came out a lot of French authorities moralised about it and some beaches even banned it!

It's awful for kids to wear headscarves : it's not even religiously mandated since only postpubescent women are supposed to cover.

Correct, I don’t believe that anyone has the right to have an opinion on how someone chooses to practice their religion so long as it does not break the law.

FGM, polygamy, child marriage all do break the law. Laws that are there for everyone and designed to prevent harm. (Although I don’t actually care about polygamy, personally.)

How many times have you spoken to someone wearing a Niqab or a Burqa and found that not seeing their facial expression whilst you were talking to them caused you such difficulty that you want it banned for everyone?? I’m going to take a wild stab in the dark and guess that you’ve never spoken to a woman wearing one.

If you have conducted widespread research by talking to the Niqab/Burqa wearing community who have said that they feel oppressed

This is naïve. If you've never experienced situations in which you've felt routinely shamed, I envy you. Ask someone who's been made to believe they're 'disgustingly' fat, for example; they'll tell you they feel more free when wearing big, baggy outfits. It's their choice, only because they're afraid of abuse if showing their body.

A colleague of mine went to work at a village in Pakistan. She had to integrate with the female life - eating separately from the men after they'd finished, never initiating conversation with a man, always covering up if a male might be able to see her. When her placement was finished, she said she felt really weird about showing her face in mixed company and talking normally to men, and actually quite scared. She had to fight to overcome it. She was only there a few months.

I'd ban balaclavas too! That stupid Link Up in Clapham High Street recently had teens in balaclavas scaring shop staff.

The balaclava has had grim associations for me anyway since I read about the 1980s serial Australian kidnapper Mr Cruel, who used the black balaclava to hide his identity (and has not yet been caught)