Is Andy Burnham reasonable to say only a small minority of women object to men being in their toilets? YABU he's right, YANBU he's wrong *titled tweaked by MNHQ at OP's request*

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15830845/Andy-Burnham-men-identify-women-use-female-toilets.html

'I don't think that's a majority view. I think it's a minority view and quite a small minority view, actually. But it is a view so you can't completely ignore it. Possibly they might be women who have experienced male violence at some point in their life. I don't know, that's one way of looking at it.'

Well I'm glad you aren't, because your views are hardly representative.

I'm interested in why you only focused on toilets, when I specifically said spaces. As a woman, how do you feel about sharing changing rooms, prison cells, domestic violence shelters, rape counselling groups with men?

For anyone interested, Shelagh Fogarty is covering this very topic on her LBC radio show, I think from 2 pm today.

I think men just do not understand that just have males in female spaces can feel very uncomfortable at times

they don't have to be doing anything inappropriate its jsut them being there

and the reason for this is because we are so often have to deal with men being inappropriate , we are not just talking about the sexual assualts that happen to us its the looks, the glances the invading our personal space that we do not have to deal with when in female only spaces

of course this goes unreported, what are we meant to report if we report I just felt uncomfortable that is not enough and is seen as unkind

Because the thread is specifically about toilets and that's what I came here to comment on, and to answer the question in the OP. Many of the other spaces mentioned I believe should be kept single sex and I do not necessarily believe trans women should have a legal right to be in them.

@CraftySeal There's nothing stopping abusive men coming into women's toilets and doing this stuff now, it's not like they're policed.

Most men manage to police themselves. They're good like that.

If a man comes into a women's loo now, it's clear he's in the wrong place. It's clear he's up to no good (if it's not a genuine mistake). I can call security. I can call the business owner. The situation is clear.

If loos are mixed sex, the situation is not clear. I wouldn't have a leg to stand on about who should be in that space.

Who benefits from this? 🤔

There's nothing stopping abusive men coming into women's toilets and doing this stuff now, it's not like they're policed.

Of course there is: the law, and social norms, and the law can be called upon when necessary, as recent tribunals have shown. For decades and decades, men stayed out of women's spaces because it was so taboo to go in there, and women therefore were empowered to challenge those who did rather than being called far right bigots and all the rest of that old crap.

Some people do 100 on the motorway, run red lights and drive drunk. Do you think we should ditch the laws, penalties and existing safeguards against dangerous driving because we can't 100% guarantee perfect compliance everywhere?

The minority of men who try to get into ladies loos is surely much smaller than the numbers of women who feel uncomfortable with their behaviour. So why does Burnham put them first?

I recently visited a country with self ID. Most places in one city in the country still had separate male and female toilets.

However in the other cities I visited there were either corridors (often located in dark basements or a floor or couple of doors away from the main restaurant/ pub/ shop floor etc) with unisex cubicles opening onto a shared sink area or cubicles designated male female or anyone with a shared sink area.

I hated the shared areas - it didn’t feel safe being alone away from the main drag with random male strangers.

At a more frivolous level, I didn’t feel comfortable adjusting my dress, putting my lipstick or perfume on or brushing my hair in the mixed sex sink area. The men - particularly those young enough to be my sons) also seemed uncomfortable with sharing a sink space with a woman their mum’s age putting on her lippie. Not great.

I also had an amusing interaction with a bloke when I was queuing for one of the female designated cubicles and he observed that two male designated cubicles were free - he said, rolling his eyes- you should just identify as male!

There were also a few places - as commonly seen in the U.K. - that had fully ensclosed unisex cubicles with integrated sinks. These were mostly clean- ish but again entailed queuing in a sometimes remote area with random men.

Exactly this.

Asking whether this is reasonable or not isn't the right question. Whether he is rright or wrong should be completely irrelevant. If there are ANY women who feel threatened by single sex spaces becoming shared then their views should be respected. It's not for you, me or Andy Burnham to tell them 'tough, most women don't care'.

Ok so how do you feel about sharing those other spaces with men?

I already edited, because I hit post too soon.

Many of the other spaces mentioned I believe should be kept single sex and I do not necessarily believe trans women should have a legal right to be in them.

Same old story really

men should be making the decisions on what is best for men and woman

and we should accept it

@GreyskySexRealistsky I have just been away on holiday and used a leisure centre for a swim. They have separate women's and men’s showers and toilets. The lockers are all mixed as are the mirrors and the hairdryers. This place is called a changing village. When drying my hair a man with a towel round his waist came to use the hairdryers, seems fine ? Well not when he proceeded to shove the hairdryer up the towel and dry off his bollocks. You couldn’t see them thankfully but it just felt like exhibitionism. The woman next to me audibly tutted. We then had a chat about how disgusting men are.

He must be utterly clueless. He discusses this topic in a quite throw-away manner, as though it is a trifling little difficulty not worthy of his precious attention and he clearly has given it no thought. Not only has he not recognised that this IS an issue, but he presumes to speak for women alongside dismissing concerns about female privacy, safety, dignity. He doesn't even bother to get his facts right, in saying it is only a small minority of women who have had bad experiences. It is also objectionable for him to suggest that objections would only be likely from women with previous experience of male violence, as though this was some sort of pathologizing factor. He is in four square typical traditional Labour mode - women's issues are not even on his horizon, and as always with Labour, women and their concerns go to the bottom of the priority pile. He is not even thinking about this. Can anyone take seriously a politician whose eyes and ears are so clamped shut?

There's nothing stopping abusive men coming into women's toilets and doing this stuff now, it's not like they're policed

If a man dies go in every girl or woman will be on red alert, know something is wrong and either get out or say something.

Once it is made normal and a girl or woman has to think ‘this is normal’ they have been mentally disarmed.

If a man’s presence becomes normal, only to be expected, you have had an incapacitating dose of a form of rohypnol.

I think, if they did away with single sex spaces that it becomes a massive, unregulated experiment and women would be the ones that would become victims to that experiment.
Not to mention the fact that if any crime that was reported was recorded as a woman attacked another woman (rather than a trans identifying man) then how would you even check the data?

I also saw someone the statistic that ‘only’ 10% of rapes and sexual assaults are committed against women by men they do not know. Is part of that down to them simply not having the opportunity to do so because single sex spaces exist?

Necessarily?

Either they do or they don't.

And cost more to build, and more people would die and be sexually assaulted.

Like loads more.

Lets not.

Aaaghhhh! What an image....😮

I'm sorry you had to experience that - but good to know other women thought it was disgusting too!

He’s wrong - it just can’t work for so many women.

Mum with non walking baby and toddler - needs to leave cubicle door partially open / wedged olen with pram watching baby when in with toddler.

Women who need to engage in ritual washing at sinks for religious reasons or adjust their dress.

Women who are exercising female biological functions other than toileting functions and have a reasonable expectation or desire for privacy eg menstruation, post menopausal flooding, miscarriage, continence issues post childbirth, morning sickness etc etc.

Women take longer in the loo - more bowel and digestive disorders and simple biology.

Toilets are for exercising biological functions and should therefore be divided on biological lines.

Yes, we might have to take it in turns to breathe soon.

Women are afraid because of men obviously they are going to be afraid to tell men that they are afraid

Yep there we have it. Many men have appalling social and hygiene skills.
We can train our dh and dc but sadly so many blokes don't tend to have anyone at home telling them how to behave in public.
I was in a changing village and one bloke just stripped off, cock and balls on show. No doubt someone will tell me us Brits are prudes and cocks on show is the norm in Scandinavia but we aren't in Scandinavia.

So how do you decide which spaces can be single sex and which can't?

And if they're all designated for women, how do we know which ones are the exception?

And if you think it is ok to let males into women's toilets because they're not "policed", why is it acceptable to have other single sex spaces, that are also not "policed" in this way?

Do you think everyone who colludes in the lie that men can be women will accept that they're not at the same point that you do?

And we all know he hasn't given any of that a single moment's thought.

But he's happy to tell us women that our concerns are just a minority view 🙄