Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Does this sound like neurodivergence or a sensitive temperament?

176 replies

kvazzy · Yesterday 22:23

Hi everyone,

Posting on AIBU for traffic.

I’m trying to make sense of my DD’s profile and would really appreciate balanced perspectives, especially from parents of neurodivergent children or people who know this area well.

My DD has just turned 5 and is in Reception. Overall she is doing well. School are happy with her progress, she is developing well academically and teachers say she is on track. She also does well in structured activities such as tennis, ballet and singing. Teachers/coaches generally give positive feedback. She has a lot of energy, but can also concentrate.

What makes me wonder about neurodivergence:

  • She is very emotionally intense and can get very upset over things that may seem small.
  • She finds losing, being second, or another child being “first” very hard. For example, if another child overtakes her on a bike or runs ahead of her, she can become very upset and say she doesn’t want to be friends with that child anymore, although this does not last.
  • She can take refusal very personally. If another child doesn’t want to play her game or do something together, she can experience it almost as rejection of the whole friendship.
  • She can be quite controlling in play. She loves children and wants to play, but sometimes wants very intense, close interaction and struggles when the other child wants space or wants to do things differently.
  • She has some sensory sensitivities: hair brushing, hair washing, nail cutting. We have to put a cartoon on while doing all these things.
  • She can be perfectionistic. She has said things like “I am not good enough” and can become very upset if her writing or numbers don’t look right.
  • She is very sensitive to criticism or correction and can become upset if we point out mistakes.
  • She can resist everyday demands such as dressing, handwashing and stopping play. We often have to make these tasks playful or interesting for her.
  • She can be very shy around other people at first, especially adults.

What makes me less sure it is neurodivergence:

  • She is very socially motivated and has always loved being around children.
  • She has rich imaginative play and creates lots of different scenarios and games.
  • Her play is flexible in the sense that she invents new games all the time, rather than repeating one rigid script.
  • She generally does well at school and in structured classes.
  • She can follow instructions and wait her turn in after-school clubs.
  • She has good language and can often explain her feelings afterwards. For example, after one big upset with friends and craft materials, she later told me she was scared the other children would take her things without asking.
  • She usually recovers after meltdowns and can go back to playing happily.
  • She seems very empathic and relationship-focused, sometimes almost too much so.

I suppose what confuses me is that she is not withdrawn or socially uninterested at all. If anything, she is intensely social, very imaginative, bright, energetic and sensitive. But she struggles a lot with rejection, losing, sharing control, and feeling that her things or her place in the group are at risk.

Does this sound more like possible neurodivergence, or more like a highly sensitive / intense / strong-willed child who needs support with emotional regulation and social flexibility?

OP posts:
MrFluffyDogIsMyBestFriend · Today 11:47

I'm autistic with two autistic kids. Obviously all ND people are different but she sounds the opposite of myself as a child. She just seems a bit bossy and competitive.

kvazzy · Today 11:53

IAmUsingTheApplauseReactionSarcastically · Today 06:55

I posted something similar on here about 11 years ago about my highly sensitive almost 3yo and mainly got a load of armchair psychologists blaming my parenting. Anyway, things came to a head in Y2 when she started getting very distressed about going into school and was ultimately diagnosed with autism. Keep on keeping an eye OP; you’ve given a good list but even then it’s hard to convey your full everyday experience and concerns in a post. It comes down to the intensity and frequency of these things and how they impact her ability to navigate daily life unsupported. You might find this a helpful resource.

Thank for sharing your experience @IAmUsingTheApplauseReactionSarcastically

Could I please ask why your DD was so distressed about the school in Y2? Also, did you see it coming or was it quite a sudden change?

OP posts:
kvazzy · Today 11:55

HortiGal · Today 07:00

When I see these thread titles, I do roll my eyes.
I have a ND adult DC, has a great job, hobbies etc, so you have an odd idea of what ND looks like.
Your DD sounds like an indulged only child, used to her own way, your gentle parenting won’t help her, she sounds quite demanding and spoiled tbf.

Sorry and yes, I could have a wrong idea. It's not intentional at all. I am sure I have many knowledge gaps and stereotypes when it comes to ND

OP posts:
kvazzy · Today 11:58

HortiGal · Today 07:00

To add, I think you know her behavior is lacking and possibly hoping to excuse it by saying ‘oh she’s ND’ step up and parent her.

Not at all @HortiGal !

I'd rather prefer that DD has behaviour issues than ND (sorry, I hope that's not offensive!). I just want to make sure I am not missing any obvious signs of ND

OP posts:
kvazzy · Today 12:02

Doggydaycare2 · Today 07:28

It’s really hard from a snippet to conclude any sort of possibility it a diagnosis of anything.

my daughter - I never really thought she had autism but her school did.

she is empathetic, fairly rarely has a meltdown about anything can get upset but rarely like a big meltdown. Is a “ good” loser. Never gets in to trouble. Academically able and does well in school.
Follows rules, never been in trouble at school. Not even needed a reminder of rules.
enjoys having friends, but is passive.

I eventually followed the schools lead and she was diagnosed with autism and adhd.
her Ed psych reports and OT reports etc meant she ended up on a independent Sen school without tribunal.

there is no one I have ever met in our actual personal life who would assume she was autistic - but she is.
the SLT who did her ADOS and a community paed said it wasn’t even a conversation needed between them as she scored so highly on the ADOS.

Hi @Doggydaycare2 thank you for sharing your experience.

Your DD sounds very nice. Much better behaviour than that of my DD.

I mean... Why did the school even consider her to be autistic? What signs did they notice? From what you are saying I don't think you saw any signs yourself???

OP posts:
kvazzy · Today 12:05

piccalili · Today 07:43

You do sound worried - Unfortunately no-one on a forum can tell you with any accuracy whether or not your child may be neurodivergent. Is there any family history? Have you raised your queries with school staff?

No family history of autism (as far as I know). Her cousin has ADHD, but it presents very differently in him.

The only issue the school raised is that she can be at times shy with authority figures however they think it's her personality. I'll make an appointment though and do thorough the issues I raised here to see if they observe the same at school (it would be good to know that in any case)

OP posts:
Overthebow · Today 12:07

kvazzy · Today 10:31

Thanks @Overthebow

If possible, would you mind listing the things that made you consider she could be ND?

First of all, I have an ASD and ADHD diagnosis and it can be genetic. She has always been a bad sleeper, takes ages to get her to go to sleep. She is very active and high energy, doesn't sit still, struggles to concentrate in school and at home if doing her reading for example, doesn't take instructions well, appears to not listen, fussy eater, sensory issues, meltdowns that last longer and are bigger than normal tantrums, she will scratch and hit us and we often have to restrain her, she sometimes runs away outside not caring about traffic, late to toilet train and it took a long time, she's not dry at night yet.

She is very social and has friends (although struggles with taking turns/not getting her own way), does well academically at school as she is bright, good at maths, good at sports, enjoys her after school activities.

kvazzy · Today 12:07

Neuronimo · Today 09:22

Apologies if anyone has posted this, but have the school raised any concerns OP?

No worries!

They did not call it a "concern" but the feedback I got at the parent evening is that she needs to grow her confidence as can be a bit too shy near the adults she does not know well.

OP posts:
kvazzy · Today 12:08

ScrollingLeaves · Today 09:24

I think she sounds like a five year old with a fiery, assertive character.

Yes, we sometimes hear similar thoughts from grandparents or other adults.

OP posts:
dizzydizzydizzy · Today 12:11

kvazzy · Today 10:39

Thanks @dizzydizzydizzy

With your DC2, did you see any other ADHD signs - i.e. inattentiveness, lack of focus, hyperactivity? Or were they mainly the signs I described?

If you don't mind me asking when was the DC2 diagnosed and what led to it?

DC2 was diagnosed at age 20 just after starting uni. I didn’t notice anything particularly untoward in primary school, although I didn’t know anything about neurodivergence back then. I probably would have realised if I knew then what I know now. From about year 8 onwards, DC2 started having obvious problems with anxiety. Both I and the school tried endlessly to help but nothing much worked - what would have probably worked would have been ADHD medication. When DC2 went to uni, it then became obvious, even to me, what the problem was. It

The rejection sensitivity dysphoria stuff sounds very familiar. The other stuff you mention less so, but it is not that much use ro
compare because ADHD can have 100s of ‘symptoms’ and they express themselves differently in each person.

if you want to ask anything else, feel free.

I’d get the ball rolling for a diagnosis in your shoes. There is a long wait and the sooner the diagnosis and treatment, the better.

kvazzy · Today 12:14

Doggydaycare2 · Today 09:44

so her not breaking any rules was actually her biggest sign.
she is a absolute stickler for the rules but this equally can be restrictive.
she is super passive - can’t say no, easily manipulated and this causes a lot of issues with peers. She is a target for quite significant bullying because she can not show a single bit of assertiveness.
she likes strict routines, struggles with noise and although likes having friends she struggles to understand the dynamics of friendships. They explained that the school picking it up was great because in these cases often is goes unnoticed until teen years where it effects their mental health as they are internally stressing and masking on the outside.
she also has strong special interests and huge anxiety of doing something wrong ( mainly in school rather than home )
when she started her secondary school ( I dependent ) they do SLT and OT assessments and even then I was surprised to read how she qualified for the maximum amount of sessions in both the school offered.

Wow @Doggydaycare2 I think it is really easy to miss all these signs as a lot of it sounds just like a very nice person, does it? It's probably very good the school noticed it.

OP posts:
kvazzy · Today 12:16

OriginalSkang · Today 09:52

Obviously it doesn't mean anything in terms of your DD and its just anecdotal, but this is exactly how my autistic DD was at that age. Although mine is extremely shy with adults and has been since she was a baby

@OriginalSkang mine can be quite shy with some adults too!

Did you notice anything else or just these signs? What eventually lead to her diagnosis and at what age, if you don't mind me asking?

OP posts:
Emmeline0 · Today 12:17

She sounds like a lovely little girl. All children have some difficulties sometimes with behaviour or shyness or doing things they don't like, and none of hers sound alarming or particularly unusual. She's only little and if you work on these things with her and as she matures I think it's likely they'll improve.

MyTrivia · Today 12:17

kvazzy · Yesterday 22:23

Hi everyone,

Posting on AIBU for traffic.

I’m trying to make sense of my DD’s profile and would really appreciate balanced perspectives, especially from parents of neurodivergent children or people who know this area well.

My DD has just turned 5 and is in Reception. Overall she is doing well. School are happy with her progress, she is developing well academically and teachers say she is on track. She also does well in structured activities such as tennis, ballet and singing. Teachers/coaches generally give positive feedback. She has a lot of energy, but can also concentrate.

What makes me wonder about neurodivergence:

  • She is very emotionally intense and can get very upset over things that may seem small.
  • She finds losing, being second, or another child being “first” very hard. For example, if another child overtakes her on a bike or runs ahead of her, she can become very upset and say she doesn’t want to be friends with that child anymore, although this does not last.
  • She can take refusal very personally. If another child doesn’t want to play her game or do something together, she can experience it almost as rejection of the whole friendship.
  • She can be quite controlling in play. She loves children and wants to play, but sometimes wants very intense, close interaction and struggles when the other child wants space or wants to do things differently.
  • She has some sensory sensitivities: hair brushing, hair washing, nail cutting. We have to put a cartoon on while doing all these things.
  • She can be perfectionistic. She has said things like “I am not good enough” and can become very upset if her writing or numbers don’t look right.
  • She is very sensitive to criticism or correction and can become upset if we point out mistakes.
  • She can resist everyday demands such as dressing, handwashing and stopping play. We often have to make these tasks playful or interesting for her.
  • She can be very shy around other people at first, especially adults.

What makes me less sure it is neurodivergence:

  • She is very socially motivated and has always loved being around children.
  • She has rich imaginative play and creates lots of different scenarios and games.
  • Her play is flexible in the sense that she invents new games all the time, rather than repeating one rigid script.
  • She generally does well at school and in structured classes.
  • She can follow instructions and wait her turn in after-school clubs.
  • She has good language and can often explain her feelings afterwards. For example, after one big upset with friends and craft materials, she later told me she was scared the other children would take her things without asking.
  • She usually recovers after meltdowns and can go back to playing happily.
  • She seems very empathic and relationship-focused, sometimes almost too much so.

I suppose what confuses me is that she is not withdrawn or socially uninterested at all. If anything, she is intensely social, very imaginative, bright, energetic and sensitive. But she struggles a lot with rejection, losing, sharing control, and feeling that her things or her place in the group are at risk.

Does this sound more like possible neurodivergence, or more like a highly sensitive / intense / strong-willed child who needs support with emotional regulation and social flexibility?

She sounds very like my 6 year old dd who has an autism diagnosis and a PDA profile.

My daughter never stops talking, seems sociable and in her diagnosis report is described as ‘unusually eloquent in speech’

I would post on the SN board because you won’t get help on AIBU from people who don’t know much about autism.

kvazzy · Today 12:22

Cakeandslippers · Today 10:33

I think this is really difficult - your list could be read either way. There are lots of things on this list that could apply to my children. There are also other things not on your list. I was never sure with my two - I just always had this feeling that things seemed 'harder' for them, or just a bit off kilter, they were both quite anxious children too. A lot of the time I put it down to me, I wasn't as good as the other mums, they could manage the behaviours that I couldn't. I read and read and read but still found everything hard. Eventually we adapted and accepted things, life was hard, we had to do things in certain ways, but you just manage, others have it harder. I never mentioned anything to school but both kids were flagged at school, one in year 1 and one in year 2. Both are now on a pathway and have decent support from school.

When I used to read threads like this, I took the comments to heart where people said it was all parenting. It was only when other adults started to notice (and there were others, not just school) that I realised perhaps there was something more.

You may be the same, or your daughter may be absolutely fine - time will tell I think. I would just carry on supporting her for now and see how things develop. I suspect over the next year or two you will start to see her become closer to her peers, or you will start to notice more differences.

For me, the key thing is not a diagnosis or anything like that - it's knowing they have what they need to be happy and to learn and I suppose when this isn't in place, that's when you need to consider what might be going on.

Thanks @Cakeandslippers

I am sorry to hear that you felt that way about your concerns. I hope it's a bit better now.

If you don't mind me asking, which things did the school flag up in y1/y2? Our school only mentioned shyness with some grown ups as a feedback, but I'd like to keep an eye on things

OP posts:
Emmeline0 · Today 12:23

dizzydizzydizzy · Today 12:11

DC2 was diagnosed at age 20 just after starting uni. I didn’t notice anything particularly untoward in primary school, although I didn’t know anything about neurodivergence back then. I probably would have realised if I knew then what I know now. From about year 8 onwards, DC2 started having obvious problems with anxiety. Both I and the school tried endlessly to help but nothing much worked - what would have probably worked would have been ADHD medication. When DC2 went to uni, it then became obvious, even to me, what the problem was. It

The rejection sensitivity dysphoria stuff sounds very familiar. The other stuff you mention less so, but it is not that much use ro
compare because ADHD can have 100s of ‘symptoms’ and they express themselves differently in each person.

if you want to ask anything else, feel free.

I’d get the ball rolling for a diagnosis in your shoes. There is a long wait and the sooner the diagnosis and treatment, the better.

I don't mean this to be rude at all but if you don't mind me asking, how is ADHD diagnosed and distinguished from either other conditions or other non medical issues if there are hundreds of symptoms and.if they are so different in every person, are there particular universal traits that show someone has ADHD?

Pinkflamingo10 · Today 12:24

She sounds great to me. Just leave her be herself. The world needs strong feisty women.

kvazzy · Today 12:27

Whatafustercluck · Today 11:01

Honestly op, this could be totally 'normal' and it could be that she is ND. Many of the behaviours you describe do chime with the female presentation of ND. But equally, at 5, she could be just figuring out the world and group dynamics - particularly as she is an only child. If it has escalated since starting reception then you're right to keep an eye on things. Many girls will just about cope in reception but may fall apart later on as academic and social demands increase.

Definitely don't put too much faith in her imaginative play and that she's socially motivated. My dd was/ is exactly the same but was recently diagnosed with autism. Looking back, her imaginative play was always based on real world scenarios (school/ teachers) and didn't involve magic, fantasy creatures or the supernatural and her writing is exceptionally well structured, but the story lines are very 'rules based'. She is also exceptionally close to one or two others, but finds group dynamics near-impossible at 9.

I would watch closely how things progress, but not jump to assessment just yet.

Edited

Thanks @Whatafustercluck that's very insightful! What eventually led to the diagnosis? Was it you or the school who noticed she could be ND?

OP posts:
kvazzy · Today 12:29

icepop2 · Today 11:18

Sounds very like DS at that age, he wasn't diagnosed until nearly Secondary school age when things became a bit more obvious. One of the first things that was picked up was that he put his hands over his ears in assembly, sensory issues are definitely relevant even though people often play them down. We put other minor things when he was young down to his age or being an only child. Don't expect nursery/school to pick up on ASD though unless her behaviour is very difficult. No one suspected DS at all until 10 and then his teacher happened to have just been on a course.

If she's doing well then I'd make a note of everything you've noticed and see how she goes for now. Also stop letting her win at home, you are not helping her at all there.

Thank you @icepop2 what kind of minor things we are talking about? The DS did not struggle with anything until he was 10 and that's when the teacher noticed it?

OP posts:
CreativeGreen · Today 12:32

kvazzy · Today 12:05

No family history of autism (as far as I know). Her cousin has ADHD, but it presents very differently in him.

The only issue the school raised is that she can be at times shy with authority figures however they think it's her personality. I'll make an appointment though and do thorough the issues I raised here to see if they observe the same at school (it would be good to know that in any case)

Honestly, seriously, what 5 year old is not sometimes shy with authority figures?

kvazzy · Today 12:36

dizzydizzydizzy · Today 12:11

DC2 was diagnosed at age 20 just after starting uni. I didn’t notice anything particularly untoward in primary school, although I didn’t know anything about neurodivergence back then. I probably would have realised if I knew then what I know now. From about year 8 onwards, DC2 started having obvious problems with anxiety. Both I and the school tried endlessly to help but nothing much worked - what would have probably worked would have been ADHD medication. When DC2 went to uni, it then became obvious, even to me, what the problem was. It

The rejection sensitivity dysphoria stuff sounds very familiar. The other stuff you mention less so, but it is not that much use ro
compare because ADHD can have 100s of ‘symptoms’ and they express themselves differently in each person.

if you want to ask anything else, feel free.

I’d get the ball rolling for a diagnosis in your shoes. There is a long wait and the sooner the diagnosis and treatment, the better.

Thanks, @dizzydizzydizzy so I understand no signs of hyperactivity and lack of concentration then? So they said he was ADHD because of anxiety and rejection sensitivity dysphoria?

I don't think if I go to the NHS they will listen to me - unless the school supports me (but as far as I know they don't think she has anything major to worry about). There is also an option to get a private diagnosis, though. I am just wondering if the signs are strong enough for this (I will pay though, if needed)

OP posts:
Doggydaycare2 · Today 12:37

kvazzy · Today 12:02

Hi @Doggydaycare2 thank you for sharing your experience.

Your DD sounds very nice. Much better behaviour than that of my DD.

I mean... Why did the school even consider her to be autistic? What signs did they notice? From what you are saying I don't think you saw any signs yourself???

I always knew are was passive and shy.
autism in girls can be very different. Although she doesn’t express her self in melt downs it is shown in other behaviours.
her social skills make school life very difficult because she can show 0 assertiveness - in primary school this was less of an issue.
now she has started secondary school all is sudden I can see it much more clearly.

kvazzy · Today 12:38

MyTrivia · Today 12:17

She sounds very like my 6 year old dd who has an autism diagnosis and a PDA profile.

My daughter never stops talking, seems sociable and in her diagnosis report is described as ‘unusually eloquent in speech’

I would post on the SN board because you won’t get help on AIBU from people who don’t know much about autism.

Thanks @MyTrivia did you notice any other signs of autism or was it mainly what I described? What age was she diagnosed and was it you or school who flagged it up?

OP posts:
PlimptonInSummertown · Today 12:41

Emmeline0 · Today 12:23

I don't mean this to be rude at all but if you don't mind me asking, how is ADHD diagnosed and distinguished from either other conditions or other non medical issues if there are hundreds of symptoms and.if they are so different in every person, are there particular universal traits that show someone has ADHD?

I did various tests including puzzles, word tests and computer tests. Amongst other things they test reaction times vs accuracy, and test working memory (your ability to hold a piece of information in your mind and manipulate it). They also test IQ. I have no idea what tests they do for children, but in adults it’s a scientific assessment, not “opinion” IYSWIM.
It took 2 x half days so was pretty thorough!

dizzydizzydizzy · Today 12:43

Emmeline0 · Today 12:23

I don't mean this to be rude at all but if you don't mind me asking, how is ADHD diagnosed and distinguished from either other conditions or other non medical issues if there are hundreds of symptoms and.if they are so different in every person, are there particular universal traits that show someone has ADHD?

Well it is long-winded process to diagnose and the person doing the diagnosis needs a high level of expertise. A consultant psychiatrist diagnosed DC2 and I. She gave us many many forms to fill out. She reviewed them to see if she thought she was likely to be able to diagnose us and decided it looked likely. We then each had a 3-hour appointment with her and then got a very lengthy report.

There are numerous difficult to diagnose health problems that present themselves differently in everyone eg Parkinson’s, ME/CFS. The skill of the doctor is to consider the expression of the symptoms and ask themselves if they fit the pattern of the condition they are looking to diagnose.

The other thing with ADHD - if you take ADHD stimulants and you have ADHD, they calm you down. If you don’t have ADHD and you take the medication, you will feel like you have drunk 6 double espressos in a row. So if you’re misdiagnosed (which is obviously possible but probably quite rare despite what many believe) it will become instantly obvious if you start the treatment.