Does this sound like neurodivergence or a sensitive temperament?

[kvazzy]

Hi everyone,

Posting on AIBU for traffic.

I’m trying to make sense of my DD’s profile and would really appreciate balanced perspectives, especially from parents of neurodivergent children or people who know this area well.

My DD has just turned 5 and is in Reception. Overall she is doing well. School are happy with her progress, she is developing well academically and teachers say she is on track. She also does well in structured activities such as tennis, ballet and singing. Teachers/coaches generally give positive feedback. She has a lot of energy, but can also concentrate.

What makes me wonder about neurodivergence:

• She is very emotionally intense and can get very upset over things that may seem small.
• She finds losing, being second, or another child being “first” very hard. For example, if another child overtakes her on a bike or runs ahead of her, she can become very upset and say she doesn’t want to be friends with that child anymore, although this does not last.
• She can take refusal very personally. If another child doesn’t want to play her game or do something together, she can experience it almost as rejection of the whole friendship.
• She can be quite controlling in play. She loves children and wants to play, but sometimes wants very intense, close interaction and struggles when the other child wants space or wants to do things differently.
• She has some sensory sensitivities: hair brushing, hair washing, nail cutting. We have to put a cartoon on while doing all these things.
• She can be perfectionistic. She has said things like “I am not good enough” and can become very upset if her writing or numbers don’t look right.
• She is very sensitive to criticism or correction and can become upset if we point out mistakes.
• She can resist everyday demands such as dressing, handwashing and stopping play. We often have to make these tasks playful or interesting for her.
• She can be very shy around other people at first, especially adults.

What makes me less sure it is neurodivergence:

• She is very socially motivated and has always loved being around children.
• She has rich imaginative play and creates lots of different scenarios and games.
• Her play is flexible in the sense that she invents new games all the time, rather than repeating one rigid script.
• She generally does well at school and in structured classes.
• She can follow instructions and wait her turn in after-school clubs.
• She has good language and can often explain her feelings afterwards. For example, after one big upset with friends and craft materials, she later told me she was scared the other children would take her things without asking.
• She usually recovers after meltdowns and can go back to playing happily.
• She seems very empathic and relationship-focused, sometimes almost too much so.

I suppose what confuses me is that she is not withdrawn or socially uninterested at all. If anything, she is intensely social, very imaginative, bright, energetic and sensitive. But she struggles a lot with rejection, losing, sharing control, and feeling that her things or her place in the group are at risk.

Does this sound more like possible neurodivergence, or more like a highly sensitive / intense / strong-willed child who needs support with emotional regulation and social flexibility?

I grew up alongside my sister who is 11 months older than me and autistic. We’re now 28 and 27 years old. Everything about your daughter sounds exactly like me growing up.

fast forward 20+ years and my sister is high needs autistic still fully cared for by mum, and I’m not autistic.

I now have my own little boy who’s 3.5 years old and non verbal high needs autistic (formally diagnosed)

does your daughter have siblings?
I feel a lot of my behaviours that were similar to your daughters was me seeking to make my parents proud to get more attention? I felt like my sister got all the attention.
looking back at it as an adult and parent to an autisitic child I realise I got plenty of attention and 1:1 time and I was simply to young to understand why my sister was treated “differently” sometimes or why some exceptions were made for her and not me.

that being said autism in girls is known to present differently to boys and girls tend to try and overachieve and perform and try to fit in.
in my sisters case she was fully talking by 1.5 years old
but always did poorly academically especially English and maths and from a very young age couldn’t stay any physical affection. (Which is still at the same to this day for her) she also wouldn’t play with dolls, wasn’t very imaginative, only interested in drawing/painting (same as my little boy) and both never played with toys in a typical way or their intended purpose

have school ever raised concerns with you? X

She's 5. Get off social media and let her live her life without being labelled by the newest fad. I mean that kindly.

To add to my previous comment
with my son I personally knew he was autistic from around 8 months old. He would have very vacent day dreaming spells (neurology had to rule out absent seizures,
), he has never played with toys in their intended use, always been obsessed with lining things up, drawn to colours, won’t move on to a new task/game/tv program etc, spins on the spot all day, hand flaps, bounces, intense eye contact when showing affection but only then, otherwise no eye contact at all, has never responded to his name, had around 5 words at 10 months old and then regressed at 11 months forgot them all, forgot how to wave, to this day has never pointed but will occasionally hand lead, when he gets upset he cannot calm himself at all we have to do that with deep pressure massages, distracting him onto something else etc.
wouldn’t ever let us know if his nappy needed changing
and hums about 95% of the day
but my god he’s the happiest cuddliest little boy 🥺🥹

She sounds like a neurotypical strong willed only child to me. Make sure she gets lots of opportunities to experience losing, turn taking and being disappointed to build her resilience. Board games are great for this.
I'm not an expert but I've got a lot of neurodivergent friends and relatives and none of what you've described raises any flags for me. The sensory sensitivities sound like dislikes that are very common in all children. The fact that she can tolerate them if she watches a cartoon means they don't affect her strongly. To give you a comparison, one of my relatives couldn't clean her ND's son's hair with anything wet until he was 8 years old because he just screamed blue murder continuously and couldn't calm down until his hair was fully dry.
She'll be fine.

I have a 5 year old who is being assessed for ASD and ADHD and no, I don’t think what you’ve described are big issues that point to ND. They are normal things that lots of 5 year olds experience. Definitely not comparable to the issues my dd has and she is on the ‘higher functioning’ side of ND.

She honestly just sounds a bit spoiled in terms of behavior. Like maybe you don't buy her a lot of things, but do you indulge her in having her own way a lot? And validating all of what you're calling her sensitive feelings?

Likewise, onlies get a bad rap for wanting to control play all the time, but part of it is them not getting to control what the family does at home all the time. Have you tried playing games at home and if she loses practicing being a good loser? And a good winner? We always do a hand shake and say good game afterwards.

We have an only and it is easy to just let her choose all the time because often DH and I just aren't that bothered, but she isn't going to have to give up watching the movie she wants if we don't push back against watching Frozen for the 17th time and so won't learn to be able to not always get her own way.

From what you have described, she wouldn't meet the criteria for autism. Basically there are a list of criteria and if you meet enough of them you get a diagnosis. A lot ot people will partially meet some of the criteria. People generally pursue a diagnosis for their child when they feel the issues are significantly impairing their child's life, otherwise it is better to wait and see how they develop.

Also, only children can sometimes be a bit more sensitive. Other children, including siblings, are a lot more brutal than gentle parents. Dealing with their peer's reactions can take a bit of getting used to.

3 ND (diagnosed) kids here. Nothing concerning on your list.

No-one on the internet can diagnose her and neither can you but you wouldn’t meet the threshold for an assessment (even privately) I don’t think.

Kids are normally assessed when there is a problem: sometimes the problem presents mainly at home, but is still there. Many of the things that are “ND” traits also are just part of the rich human tapestry of variation. An ND diagnosis happens when you have a lot of them and it is impacting life.

Parenting is hard. Sounds like she has behaviours you need to tackle. Children don’t grow into functioning sociably acceptable people without intervention; it takes work and that’s also true for ND kids.

@kvazzyyou are getting a hard time here.

Possibly ADHD. It does sound line she could have rejection sensitivity dysphoria (the taking refusal personally thing and sensitive to criticism) which is common with ADHD.

DC2 who has ADHD always has lots of friends and did very well in primary school.

Perfectionism can be a thing in ADHD - sometimes because they are able and motivated but have poor executive functioning, so they know that they want to achieve but struggle on the organisation.

Contolling in play can be a thing with ADHD too. It makes the world more predictable and with executive function difficulties it can be harder to be flexible.

People with ADHD are often very creative and imaginative.

I have ADHD and autism. I am very empathetic. With your DD, I am not seeing obvious autism but it’s obviously not easy to tell. An ADHD diagnosis is much more useful anyway because there is treatment for that.

She sounds ‘spoiled’ in the sense that she’s been used to being centred, indulged, placated. Makes it difficult when parents aren’t there to manage everything. I don’t mean there’s anything wrong with her or she won’t grow up delightful. Just that it’s a bit harder for those children to have to cope with their emotions when other people have to be considered.

Does she have any repetitive behaviours?

Autism isn’t a fad.

Parents diagnosing on behalf of their children using Dr Tik Tok is, though.

Who is diagnosing? I just see a worried parent. Children diagnosed with autism spend many years undiagnosed and parents absolutely should question if they have suppositions. Leaving things until a child falls to pieces which can often happen with ND girls is not ok.

I gave my opinion to the OP and didn't volunteer for a lecture but thanks.

I think what I think, know what I know, experienced my experiences and see what I see.

Have a good day.

You gave your rather ignorant opinion on a AIBU thread an open forum.

All of your ‘not ND’ indicators apply to my 13 year old DD who was diagnosed with ASD aged 9. Only one of your ‘yes’ indicators would be relevant in our case.

If she is progressing happily then wait and watch whilst helping her develop her skills in the areas she has difficulty with. For many ASD girls the differences only start to show as they get older. I always knew my DD was quirky and could be ND but it was only in year 4 when her personality changed and she became extremely anxious from nowhere that she needed an assessment and diagnosis to help herself.

I have multiple autistic relatives and two autistic children, she sounds completely average to me. The sensory issues are the only thing on your list that I would even wonder about but those are very very common and will usually resolve with age.

Your list of reasons why you don’t think your child is ND is a joke. 2 of my children are autistic/auadhd. Interestingly, they like to be around other children, played imaginative games, thrives on structure. Many ND children are similar, many are not.

I have no idea whether your child is ND, no one here is going to know that. She does sound like an average 5 year old who’s used to getting her own way. Your best bet is talking to her class teacher about it. But maybe do some research into what “signs” to look out for as you seem to have no idea what you should be concerned about.

There is a lot of strong feeling on mumsnet about overdiagnosis, etc. What you’re describing sounds exactly like my 3 children, all now diagnosed in their teens. They have struggled so much over the years- I had to fight really hard to get heard. It’s led to eating disorders, suicidal thoughts, isolation and depression in my girls.

Please ignore those who want to make out you are being hysterical. Now with the help we have from experts in the NHS I have learned to ignore those who don’t understand.

Your daughter might just be a sensitive child, learning about the world or there may well be more going on. Lots of her experiences can be both, but go with your gut and keep reading (go to NhS for recommendations rather than internet). If you think she needs support, learn about how to manage her needs as if she is neurodivergent.

It’s just a different type of brain, and nothing to be scared of. My kids are the best.

This sounds exactly like my older DS who is also 5. I regard him as sensitive rather than neurodivergent although we have autism in my DH's family (brother, niece and possibly their dad) so it's not impossible. I just try to coach him through situations that are difficult and be empathetic about his feelings especially around losing and rejection without trying to shield him from those experiences. Fwiw I think all 5yo struggle with losing and they're figuring out friendships so there will be sadness when things don't go their way. Some kids are more peer-oriented than others.

I agree with this. I always suspected my dd was ND, but I was told no way, not her when asked. I even got school to survey all of her teachers for possible signs in year 10 and nothing was spotted. Turns out I was correct.

As for your dd, some of the stuff you’re describing sounds a lot like my dd at her age. She is 17 and has copious amounts of friends. However, dd didn’t engage in much imaginative play, but imaginative play definitely doesn’t rule out ND. Neither does being able to wait your turn and follow the rules.

I'd be really careful about taking advice from here.

What you've said sounds pretty much like my 4 year old DD who school have prompted concerns about, is now on SEN register and has an IEP, HV has assessed and referred to child development centre.

To us we were initially very surprised but have seen more as time has gone on.
Child with very advanced language, excellent at naming emotions, wants to play with others. However also incredibly inflexible, needs to be in control of everything, tries to play with other children but gets frustrated that they don't follow her script and she doesn't seem to get the social rules.
She has an incredible bank of excuses to use to not do something she doesn't want to and can tailor it to the person asking!
At age 5 there's lots to do to 'scaffold' and so it is worth wondering.

Try reading
'Understanding Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome in Children'
The descriptions clicked for me!

My DD has enjoyed school so much more since the IEP, it means they aren't getting into fights with her about things like putting her coat on. That would then ruin the whole day and she wouldn't engage afterwards.

Ignore the criticism of gentle parenting. If your child has this profile then being forceful is going to make things 10 times worse. I realised we had ended up adapting our parenting to the child we had- the playing games etc to get her to do things!

This also describes my dd. Including the ED. She is heavily masking because she doesn’t want to be seen as different and using it as a coping mechanism and very mentally unwell.

She just sounds like a really bad loser, you can help her be a little more graceful in loss. Do you often find yourself letting her win games?