Angela Raynor still doesnt get it.

[ThisDandyWriter]

I’ve just read Angela’s Raynor’s statement about why Labour did so badly and what they need to do to change….aibu to think SHE STILL DOESNT GET IT!! Nothing mentioned about welfare, nothing mentioned about immigration-these are 2 subjects most talked about as the reasons why people didn’t vote for Labour.
she might not like it-but id they want to stay in power, they MUST tackle these subjects and not just ignore them because they dint fit her narrative.

When Reform leadership demanded the BBC sack Gary Lineker for his pretty tame tweets about government policy, was that not 'suggesting anyone gets cancelled or ostracised'?

On a more general note. Please look up fascism. Please look up socialism. You need to understand these terms if you're going to use them.

be all the questions were so goading, of course illegal immigration has affected me adversely-directly and indirectly.

Indirectly by the costs associated (processing, caring for them etc which could be spent on nhs) and directly by being pickpocketed by an illegal.

Many people are also very aware of other methods like widespread visa and asylum fraud.

It’s about our government having a lack of control over who is entering or staying in our country.

It’s a combination of action of many things - the very visible small boat arrivals, combined with the knowledge that the ‘human rights’ lawyers will often successfully scupper the removal of even the most heinous criminals, the vast amounts being spent on all these new arrivals and the avoidable disruption and harm being caused to British people.

And obviously the regular reports of actual terrorists and criminal fugitives entering and a steady stream of rapes, gang rapes and murders by foreign nationals plus electoral fraud by people with anti Western views seeking to subvert our democracy. It all adds up.

How are they far off the mark? The main markers of fascism include opposition to Marxism, opposition to political and cultural liberalism, conservative economic policies, imperialism and military values. Reform support all of those things.

I just read that too. I want to support her as a fellow ex 16 year old mum and ginger but she makes it difficult, a post probably written by ChatGPT and yes the main reason people voted reform is immigration which she doesn’t even mention.

No, in political science, facism is placed on the far right of the political spectrum.

I am a bit bipolar when it comes to this. I am all for socialism if it’s actually global. Ie. For everyone. Universal basic income.

What I am not for is the current state of things where all and sundry seem to be topped up but young people trying to build a life on their own two feet are penalised. I am taking small business owners, Ltd company directors, self employed. These are the wealth creators of our future.

So I have decided today that if raynor gets in then I am signing my companies over to someone and will take employee status. I have calculated I can then claim UC, take home the exact same, reduce my outgoings as can claim 90% childcare and boost my pension by 2k a month.

Thank you @Philgooglemail for this thorough post. This is why I am scared of Reform.

The Urban vs Rural divide seems to be going the same way as USA?

Rural, generally, against more immigration.
Urban, generally, pro more immigration.

And there is no centrist party.

And there cannot be a truly green/ecological party because capitalism relies on infinite growth which relies on infinite human population increases, which now has to come from immigration, but which is bad for nature…

When Reform leadership demanded the BBC sack Gary Lineker for his pretty tame tweets about government policy, was that not 'suggesting anyone gets cancelled or ostracised'?

I know we have got so used to the huge left wing bias of the BBC that it seems quite normalised but have you remembered that as a (spectacularly well paid) employee of the BBC, Gary is supposed to remain impartial?

Calling for someone to be sacked for misconduct in their job is not calling for them to be cancelled or ostracised.

This rhetoric — Andy Burnham is a saviour who will solve all our problems — do you really think it’s realistic to think he can do this? What do you think he is going to be able to come up with when we have been spending beyond our means for years and now we are stuck servicing that debt as well as a ballooning bill for welfare.

Labour lost most of their votes to the Greens because their policies have been too anti-immigrant. So Reform may have won a seat from Labour by Labour's votes being reduced by the Greens, allowing Reform to have the higher number.... not a transference of Labour to Reform.

The best policy for Labour is to allow Reform to have the people who consider immigration the most important issue and concentrate on dealing with the issues (such as housing and cost of living) that matter to the majority of people.

These two posts perfectly capture the Labour's dilemma, and their willingness to destroy the party and the country on the alter of "socialism at any cost"

Again patronising people isn’t going to make them vote for people on the left. I do understand them. I studied it at university thanks . It’s why I know being right wing in the uk is not fascism and it is a term used to try to force people not to want to control migration, have strict law and order, have a strong military etc which is clearly what people do want as evidenced by these election results. That is just normal, bog standard, right of centre think. Nothing authoritarian about it at all. Lots of people also do not want a super liberal, anything goes society as can ben seen by the pushback on the transgender issue. This what the government don’t get. Most people are generally pretty (small c) conservative.

Good. I hope the Labour Party never listen to racists like you. They’re not Reform. They don’t just say what the racists want to hear. They were voted in on a set of principles and they’re acting on them. Good on them and good on Starmer.

To you perhaps, but not to the majority who took their vote elsewhere.

it's about being anti immigration,.
It's about stopping illegal asylum seekers who are economic migrants.
There are now 200, 000 living here, illegally.

He wasn't 'supposed to remain impartial' - especially as a freelancer. That was a big part of the whole story, and the main reason he was reinstated. And it wasn't misconduct. Not even close.

Also the BBC is neither right or left wing, despite some spikiness in the distribution of how that presents. I know people there who can confirm, they try very hard as an organisation to be as impartial as possible, and there are many people who spend most of their role worrying about whether they're managing it. And they get huge amounts of stick from both sides.

I disagree that the questions were goading. They were asking you to consider the issue a bit more critically which clearly I overestimated your abilities to do. This thread is living proof that this country is going to distroy itself from within far faster than any illegal immigrants can destroy it.

Visa and asylum fraud is not widespread. My mother used to work in visa and asylum policy, and she is at pains to say how uncommon it is.

Yes, the small boat arrivals of people are very visible, but they are not very frequent. A lot of money is spent on accommodating asylum seekers, but most of that money goes to the accommodation providers and only a tiny portion to the asylum seekers themselves (£9.95 a week for those in full board accom or £49 a week for those not in full board accom).

Electoral fraud by ‘people with anti-Western views seeking to subvert our democracy’ is a constant threat, as shown by Russia’s increasing attempts to influence our elections, but it’s very well managed.

I’ve not yet seen any reports of terrorist or criminal fugitives entering the U.K. illegally. Most of them are removed successfully. I’ve not come across any evidence of lawyers successfully arguing for their right to stay in the U.K.

As for murders and raped committed by foreign nationals, these happen but they’re rare, and most of the time, the people committing them are here legally. I’ve never heard of a gang rape being committed in the U.K. by a foreign national. If you’re referring to gang rapes committed by grooming gangs, these are extremely rare, and the men committing them were British nationals.

And that my dear is why Reform will get in.

calling someone racist when they have given no indication of racism whatsoever is incredibly insulting (and in my case untrue).

and the fact I have never voted reform is irrelevant, because voting fir reform does not necessarily make someone racist.

Raynor is a fool
She wants a higher minimum wage.
Has she not got her head around the fact that 2 pubs a day are closing and unemployment is rising due to the increase in the minimum wage and higher NI?
Higher minimum wage= fewer jobs= higher unemployment.
Less tax able to fund benefits.

Taking extremely tiny soundbites from Hitler and trying to compare the evils of the Holocaust with Reform is pretty low.

The growing anti semitism in this country is coming from the left - why don’t you do their soundbites first?

The irony is that immigration reached a peak when Suella Bobblehead and Honest Bob Jenrick were the ministers in charge of immigration under the previous government.

And Farage's Brexit resulted in millions of hard-working Europeans being told to bugger off back where they came from, to be replaced by workers from Nigeria, India, Zimbabwe, Nepal and elsewhere - workers who have been exploited by visa-scammers, gangmasters and unscrupulous employers.

There's two points to this.

The first is on implementation - he's been very successful as Manchester Mayor on many fronts (homelessness, Bee network, education, emissions) so he can point to stuff he's done, and his own political ideas (more devolution) and say 'look - I make things happen'

The second is on messaging. Keir is a good public servant with a good career and (I honestly believe this) good principles. But he's awful at the presentational bits of politics, and modern politics needs good communicators, so picking someone with a bit more charisma and comfort in talking to people would help Labour.