to think that, even considering the NCT's reputation, this breastfeeding counsellor was *shite*?

[SarahAndQuack]

I've just had the NCT session with the breastfeeding counsellor. I'm doing NCT because I'm pregnant with my first biological baby; I'm on my own and I have a 9 year old who's my ex-partner's biological daughter, and she and I did NCT then too - so obviously, I do get that some bits will be less relevant to me. But mostly it's been useful as I've never given birth before, and when we did NCT most of a decade ago I was concentrating more on the 'partner' stuff. Anyway, that's the background.

The counsellor started out by describing how, when a baby is born, it can crawl up its mother to find the breast and latch on for itself. She went on about this at some length. Someone asked if this is something likely to happen with a NHS birth and she said absolutely it was. Then she asked if anyone had questions about establishing breastfeeding, so I asked if she had tips for if you had a less-than-ideal birth and no skin-to-skin. I was expecting tips about getting a baby to latch or whatever.

She said in that case, you could feed the baby expressed milk with syringe, then 'later on' try to 'establish' breastfeeding (but no indication of how). Apparently those were the two options: either your baby crawls up your body as nature intended, or you're onto syringe feeding. I thought this was utterly bonkers so the session didn't start well for me.

After that, virtually every question someone asked about FF or feeding expressed milk, she'd look confused and reply 'well ... you could do that. It's your choice! Whatever choice you make is up to you!' Clearly people were asking for actual advice, and clearly she'd been told she wasn't allowed to insist breastfeeding was the be-all and end-all, but she also had nothing helpful to say about anything else.

At some point she split us into two groups and said she'd teach the partners how breastfeeding should work and then they would teach the mums, and she said since I was on my own she'd teach me. She talked me through it and I asked about positions after a c-section, and she replied 'I can only talk about what's straightforward' then got up and walked off, so I was sitting there on my own while everyone else carried on talking. Roughly 40% of women have sections! It's not a niche thing!

I am fully aware other people in the group found it a bit crap; there was a bit of muttering and we were all pretty obviously clockwatching.

Is it me, or is this really shit?

I did like my NCT group first time around, and I like the women there this time - I'd absolutely do it for the social network. And I must say that woman who's done the other sessions has been really down-to-earth and helpful.

I do know people who really hated NCT, so I was aware it must be the luck of the draw. Even so, I was surprised how much I was angry about this particular woman.

I did NCT nearly 30 years ago with DC1 and the tutor was a hippy dippy natural birth madwoman, and claimed to be a qualified midwife. Fortunately, several of the prospective parents were nurses and doctors and brought the whole thing back down to earth.

We also did the NHS classes which were actually rooted in reality, and were much more useful when it came to birth / feeding / bathing / dressing newborns.

I’m pleased on the whole it’s been ok but a shame about this session
the woman who did mine was batshit
an example of this was, I was about to drop and she had us all on the floor “drawing” what we thought the labour room would look like - I mean wtf was that about
we paid a small fortune for the course then she organised a get together for everyone when they’d had the babies and we all had to pay for it when it was stated on the emails. I just didn’t bother going I didn’t feel the need I’d kept in touch with 3 others and they didn’t go to either so definately luck of the draw!

congratulations on your pregnancy tho xx

NCT breastfeeding sessions were crap.
They were very clear that if it hurts, you're doing it wrong. I felt bloody awful because it was incredibly painful to start with so I was convinced something was wrong.

A nice midwife helped me improve my latch but it still hurt. After a while it got better and was painless and I BF until weaned.

Assumed with my second it'd be fine because I was now experienced and must've been doing it wrong the first time.... nope. Still very very painful. (Nipple shields helped, although everyone advised against).

So yeah, pretty unhelpful even apart from all the other crap.

I had “the crawl” with my second child. It wasn’t anywhere near as dramatic as is described - he didn’t crawl the length of the Sahara desert! What actually happened was that they gave him to me to cuddle whilst they were sorting out my tearing and as far as I was concerned we were just having a lovely cuddle. And then he moved himself over and CHOMP he helped himself to supper. (He was born at 4:57pm.) I hadn’t been thinking about feeding him at that point (as I said they were still doing unspeakable things to my nether regions!) - he just decided it was snack time.

It was very different to breastfeeding my eldest for the first time where I carefully positioned her in the perfect position (as given by the 17 books I had carefully read beforehand) and then carefully stroked her cheek to get her to open her mouth (as advised in the 17 books) and carefully and exactly latched her on (did I mention the books)?

But my first was a very different situation (c section, PPH, no skin to skin for hours as I was busy basically trying not to die). Didn’t make a difference to the result though - both were breastfed.

NCT is basically a rather expensive way of making friends. Our leader kept making us close our eyes to visualise things. Unfortunately she also closed her eyes a lot too so didn’t realise that quite a few of us were cheating!

No, she was definitely describing a baby crawling up from the nether regions over a period of time. Mention was made of the linea nigra and its role here. You can find videos online if you're so inclined. It's not that I don't believe it ever happens; I just thought it was a weird thing to spend so much time on.

That's awful. I'm so sorry.

Would your daughter only drink it warm? With my daughter who drank formula (the other one was EBF), I just made each bottle with room-temperature water right before she drank it.

We tried to get on the NHS classes through our midwife and were told a) online only b) they were full and c) they'd stick us on a waiting list but there would be zero chance we'd get a place.

I don't know how zoom can be full?!?!

Was very disappointing.

I have done the nct ones and I've got the feeding one next. I'm extremely unhappy we've just been told this one is online after paying all that money!

Your experience doesn't sound great at all op.

That sounds terrible! For what it's worth, after both my babies (one straightforward water birth, one c section) they've been put on my chest and the midwives have helped to make sure they've latched on. I had a planned section second time round and the impact on establishing breastfeeding was one of the things that worried me. I had some complications during the section so DH had DD under his scrubs for skin to skin and then once I was in the recovery room they helped me get her feeding straight away.

When they're tiny I found the rugby ball hold the easiest way to get a good angle. I had a breastfeeding pillow to help with positioning so I didn't have to hunch over. It was actually fine after the c section as the scar is so low down, I had the pillow curved around my side rather than around my front and it didn't bother me.

I did have some latch issues second time around and was sent this video by our local breastfeeding support, I found it really useful.

https://globalhealthmedia.org/video/attaching-your-baby-at-the-breast/

You can't make formula bottles with room-temperature water. The formula itself isn't sterile - it needs boiling water to make it safe.

Thank you! That video is exactly the sort of thing I meant. I have a dim memory of the rugby ball hold - it's just, because it was my ex doing the feeding, obviously I don't remember it as well. I expected to go along and get some reminders, but the whole thing felt as if she was saying 'well, if you don't do it exactly like this then there is no other option'. She kept repeating that there were breastfeeding charities that'd give advice, or we could contact her after the birth ... but the whole bloody point of something like NCT is trying to get some of the answers in advance, isn't it?! I'm not knocking being able to go along with a newborn and get some in-person help, but it'd be lovely to have some sense of things to try first, when most people with a days-old baby don't desperately want to leave the house.

Interesting - that’s not the official medical advice in the US.

”Infant formula does not need to be warmed before feeding...If you use powdered infant formula, use water from a safe source to mix your infant formula. If you are not sure if your tap water is safe, contact your local health department.”

https://www.cdc.gov/infant-toddler-nutrition/formula-feeding/preparation-and-storage.html

”You can use clean tap water or bottled water for concentrated liquid or powdered formula...It's fine to give your baby room temperature or even cold formula.”

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/infant-and-toddler-health/in-depth/infant-formula/art-20045791

Can newborn babies crawl? I thought that was a developmental milestone further on than birth?!

Ah, that's interesting. The FDA advice seems to suggest that boiling water for formula is the safest option, even in the US: https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/handling-infant-formula-safely-what-you-need-know.

In the UK, because we know formula is not sterile, it's recommended to use boiling water that sterilises it. The issue isn't the baby needing warm liquid to drink (my DD was perfectly happy with fridge-cold pre-mix formula, which is sterile). It's to do with the bacteria that might already be in the powder.

They sort of squirm, don't they? There genuinely are videos of babies doing this squirmy motion up the mum's body to the boob, and I'm sure back deep in the mists of time this is what they all had to do. But these days I am fairly sure the majority of us end up with a newborn popped on our chests for skin to skin at the most!

That’s really interesting and very cute! I don’t have babies of my own and my professional experience is with nursery and infant ages so hearing about milestones before that is really interesting

TBH my memory of our NCT breastfeeding session was that it was also a bit crap. I can't remember much except for being handed a doll/teddy each and then asked to hold it as though we were going to feed them and then she went around correcting the position, which was helpful - I had been holding with body facing up, and she showed me that usually when breastfeeding you'd hold them on their side with their tummy facing you, which is logical but I hadn't realised.

My memory is that the other mums to be were really put off by the session and started doubtfully saying they had been intending to BF but it all sounded a bit intense and perhaps they would mixed feed instead.

But the very useful part of it was that she let us know when she was available for drop in advice. She was very good at the drop in advice. I think it's hard to teach someone how to breastfeed in theory, it's much better to be able to react to a situation that's happening and understand how to respond from there. It's difficult to learn all the possibilities in advance really.

And since you know how much I obsessively collect information, IMO, this is absolutely the best collection of BF teaching/information I've come across in the last 18 years. With the prior warning that the video called "Breastfeeding the brave" is about breastfeeding children with major health issues such as childhood cancers. All the white background presentations are general BF related info.

https://www.youtube.com/@lyndseyhookway-feedsleepbo9255/videos

In terms of mixed feeding you could direct your coursemates to the book Mixed Up by Lucy Ruddle or her social media pages. She seems to be the only one who is interested in covering this topic. I would say that your BFC has somewhat of an outdated attitude to it, but actually if anything I think it might have become even more polarised. I understand where the polarisation comes from, but it's so offputting for most people.

This is why I specifically avoided doing antenatal with the NCT, I’ve heard too many reports like this.

i ended up with an emergency c section and a baby who had tongue tie. I had a horrible time getting breastfeeding established but we did manage it. What was invaluable for me was a very good local breastfeeding support group which had trained breastfeeding counsellors, which was run by a countywide breastfeeding charity that we are lucky to have where I live.

I would highly recommend looking around to see if there is a breastfeeding support group local to you OP, and go along before the baby comes to ask all your questions, then go back once the baby is here if you need to. We wouldn’t have breastfed without our group, they were brilliant.

In terms of actual experience of skin to skin.

DS1 2008, NHS hospital - we did skin to skin on and off for maybe 1hr? I have a photo of my mum holding him timestamped 30 mins after the birth, but we were both exhausted. He did not feed at birth. I kept trying to show it to him but he wasn't the slightest bit interested! We then fell asleep for hours after being trasferred to the ward, and I woke up in a panic having forgotten everything I had ever learnt! A nice midwife helped us get started lying down because I genuinely didn't have strength in my arms to hold him. Absolutely no issues at all feeding him ever, except that I could only do it lying down for about the first 3 days and then with a pillow at precisely the right angle, but I didn't need that for ever.

DS2 2018, Germany - we did skin to skin but only for 15 mins, as they were concerned about his oxygen levels. They took him off for oxygen but then we were separated for 24 hours while he went to NICU. I asked to feed him before he went, which he seemed to take to naturally. They did give him formula (and chamomile tea!!!) in the NICU. I felt annoyed I had not got the skin to skin so did lots of skin to skin to see if he would do the breast crawl 24 hours later and IIRC - he did! Had no issues getting him to feed, but my supply was extremely slow to get going owing to the 24h separation and nobody showing me how to use the pump. Colostrum persisted until day 6/7 (which is typical for a c-section, which I didn't have). Absolutely zero support with feeding, I was given really bad misleading advice as well. I persisted out of sheer stubbornness and by recalling everything I had ever read or learnt from my previous BF experience/peer support training. I was lucky in that I went against the bad advice in the right direction, because I could have gone against it in a bad direction. I didn't understand where it had come from. However I still think following it directly would have been the wrong approach. We did successfully mixed feed though.

DS3 2021, Germany - This was the only one where I got the "gold standard" skin to skin and first feed within an hour but TBH this child has literally never refused food in his life 😅 Because of the experiences with the other two I was supremely unbothered and in fact once DH left after 40 mins because he was about to get a parking ticket, I got left on my own for what felt like ages, and I was quite frustrated that I was stuck on this very high up oddly shaped bed with no plastic fishtank in reach and nobody else to hold the baby. I wanted to put him down before I dropped him because again, I was very tired. I don't think I did any breast crawling this time and had no issues feeding.

The breast crawl with DS2 was very cool to witness but considering he is the one who had the most issues feeding I really don't think it is crucial at all.

I know Germany and the NHS will differ a lot - it might be that NHS are in more urgency for the room to be free. But IME they have fewer staff than labouring mums. And once the baby is safely out, they breathe a sigh of relief that they can leave you to it and they go off and attend to another patient. They aren't in a huge rush to clear the room because it's not like it can be used by another mother immediately anyway, it has to be cleaned first and I assume (?) that is done by cleaning staff rather than clinical staff. Plus they have to observe the baby for a while after birth, and most of these observations can happen just as well with the baby on your chest and this tends to be the standard unless there are urgent and critical concerns. So them giving you the "golden hour" is no more inconvenient for them really. And as I found with DS3, an hour is actually a really long time when you've just given birth because giving birth is exhausting.

I also remember with DS1, I was very keen to wait for the cord to stop pulsing before cutting the cord, and I was told with DS2 that is totally standard now. Again, not sure if NHS policy, but it seems possible. I also opted against the injection for faster placenta delivery (unless obviously I was losing a lot of blood etc). Since natural placenta delivery takes a good 20-40 mins, that's a decent stretch of uninterrupted time with your baby where nobody can remove them as well because they are literally attached to you.

It was very different to breastfeeding my eldest for the first time where I carefully positioned her in the perfect position (as given by the 17 books I had carefully read beforehand) and then carefully stroked her cheek to get her to open her mouth (as advised in the 17 books) and carefully and exactly latched her on (did I mention the books)?

I absolutely love this @Mumofteenandtween especially contrasted with the second child who just confidently helps themselves.

Thank you so much, @BertieBotts, you are wonderful! So interesting how different all of yours were (and the chamomile tea ... so very German! ).

I suppose I am probably a bit on edge because of how rubbish it was with DD. I actually think the breastfeeding consultant we had through NCT the first time was nice - she was dead keen for me to try to induce lactation, which I didn't fancy, but she was basically sensible and helpful and my memory is that a couple of our cohort did go back to her for advice and she was useful.

I don't feel terribly stressed about breastfeeding at the moment - I think I will give it a go, and I'm aware of lots of the basic stuff that one doesn't know first time round, and that will probably help me not to panic even if it doesn't help me actually do it. And then, if it doesn't work, I don't feel at all worried about formula feeding, because I've done it before and I know there are bigger things one can worry about.

I think part of what got me was that people were asking totally sensible questions, like 'what happens if my milk doesn't come in straightaway,' and it didn't seem to occur to this woman that the reply you actually need to hear there is 'ah, milk doesn't really 'come in' until after the first 3-4 days; what comes first is colostrum'. She did cover this properly elsewhere in the session, but based on questions from the others, at least some people hadn't made the link between her saying colostrum is produced in tiny amounts, and the idea of milk 'coming in'. And it is so common, IME, for people to say 'oh, I couldn't breastfeed, my milk didn't even come in until day 3' because they're under the impression that means there's a problem.

Oh, and I am sure I have whinged about this before, but I am still angry that we didn't really get to do skin to skin because of all the crap around DD's birth that was just unavoidable nonsense. However, again, I will probably worry about it less second time around!

I just really liked my NCT group first time round, it was a big plus. But I do know what you mean. I'm sorry you had such a rough time!

Annoyingly, this woman seems to be heavily involved in the local charity group, which makes me wary of it! There was a good one where we used to live. But I will keep an open mind.

Our NCT sessions were crap. We were hoping to find parent friends for life but we ended up in a session with only two other couples, miles away from where any of us lived.

It was over a decade ago but I'm sure she showed that video too. Honestly, I didn't take much from it all. And she was very pro natural birth which to be fair I wanted but it's not for everyone and not everyone has a choice. It could have made some people feel quite shamed I think if they didn't have a natural birth. I wonder if that's behind some of the stuff on the c-section questions.

The best help I had with breastfeeding was a midwife in our birth centre. We had a brilliant one near us and while my son latched fine on one side, he wouldn't on the other. The midwife explained that he might have just liked his cheek touching me on one side so to use a "rugby ball hold" for the other side. Worked a treat.

If you're not in a birth centre for the birth, just have your local charity breastfeeding support contacts. Loads are super helpful.