to think that, even considering the NCT's reputation, this breastfeeding counsellor was *shite*?

[SarahAndQuack]

I've just had the NCT session with the breastfeeding counsellor. I'm doing NCT because I'm pregnant with my first biological baby; I'm on my own and I have a 9 year old who's my ex-partner's biological daughter, and she and I did NCT then too - so obviously, I do get that some bits will be less relevant to me. But mostly it's been useful as I've never given birth before, and when we did NCT most of a decade ago I was concentrating more on the 'partner' stuff. Anyway, that's the background.

The counsellor started out by describing how, when a baby is born, it can crawl up its mother to find the breast and latch on for itself. She went on about this at some length. Someone asked if this is something likely to happen with a NHS birth and she said absolutely it was. Then she asked if anyone had questions about establishing breastfeeding, so I asked if she had tips for if you had a less-than-ideal birth and no skin-to-skin. I was expecting tips about getting a baby to latch or whatever.

She said in that case, you could feed the baby expressed milk with syringe, then 'later on' try to 'establish' breastfeeding (but no indication of how). Apparently those were the two options: either your baby crawls up your body as nature intended, or you're onto syringe feeding. I thought this was utterly bonkers so the session didn't start well for me.

After that, virtually every question someone asked about FF or feeding expressed milk, she'd look confused and reply 'well ... you could do that. It's your choice! Whatever choice you make is up to you!' Clearly people were asking for actual advice, and clearly she'd been told she wasn't allowed to insist breastfeeding was the be-all and end-all, but she also had nothing helpful to say about anything else.

At some point she split us into two groups and said she'd teach the partners how breastfeeding should work and then they would teach the mums, and she said since I was on my own she'd teach me. She talked me through it and I asked about positions after a c-section, and she replied 'I can only talk about what's straightforward' then got up and walked off, so I was sitting there on my own while everyone else carried on talking. Roughly 40% of women have sections! It's not a niche thing!

I am fully aware other people in the group found it a bit crap; there was a bit of muttering and we were all pretty obviously clockwatching.

Is it me, or is this really shit?

Clearly! Faded Red has a good point. What a load of rubbish (the breast-feeding woman, not FadedRed!).

Sorry didn’t mean to sound sanctimonious or judgemental in regards to you choosing NCT! I’ve just heard a lot about their refusal to engage with anything outside of the “ideal” scenarios and women left feeling unprepared and stuff. It makes total sense if you had a previously good experience that you would go back!

sorry to hear that woman has her fingers in all the local breastfeeding pies as well, that’s annoying! Perhaps the infant feeding team in your local maternity unit might have some resources/run a group?

congratulations on your baby!

Sounds highly crap. I had a really difficult delivery and couldn't BF for couple of days. No immediate post-birth skin to skin for me! The NHS midwives and health visitor were amazingly supportive in helping me to get BF established, ended up doing it for almost 4 years. I think they are more prepared for the realities of what can happen.

Oh also there is another breastfeeding insta account, Olivia Hinge, which I remember being helpful!

The baby crawls up it's mother to find the breast and latches on by itself? I've heard it all now.

Oh, no, you didn't at all!

I was really tossing up about it this time, because there are other options and you never quite know what's worthwhile. I'm still in touch with most of the group from when DD was born and I just liked them very much. I must admit this time, I partly went for it because NCT tends to skew a bit older, and I'm 41, so I thought it might help me feel less of an odd-one-out in that respect. And TBF, I've been super impressed by the way the regular NCT leader for this course has just gently structured things so I'm not constantly feeling the lack of a partner, which I think shows a lot of care.

It's just this woman!

And, this thread helped me clarify my thoughts and write some feedback (we had a feedback request), so that's really good.

Thank you.

Blimey, I am clearly a shit mother. I had no idea that babies were supposed to crawl up their mum to find milk. None of my three ever did even when set on me for some skin to skin.

I didn't bother with the NCT because I was sure I wanted to formula feed and didn't want their judgement.

This woman sounds batshit, and more suited to kangaroos than human babies. I'd ask her if she actually was one in a previous life.

I have just gone back and read about the "breast crawl" being all the way from the nether regions. This is indeed unlikely to happen, unless you have a home birth or possibly in a very hands off midwife-led unit. Mostly because the majority of women like to have their baby handed to them ASAP rather than just left there between their legs, and you're not always in a position to reach down and pick them up, which is probably somewhat instinctive. I can't really imagine just lying back and waiting TBH - you want to see them, touch them, hold them!

If you do think you would prefer the baby to make their own way up then I'm sure it's an option which can be requested. But I'm certain that it's not necessary for a successful breastfeeding experience.

The breast crawl I have seen in videos is where the baby is placed on the tummy/chest, and they can indeed sort of wriggle in the right direction and bob around and eventually they get it right. But TBH newborns will do this on anything, and most of them will lift up their head a bit if placed face down on your chest (which is lovely because a lot of new parents are so proud of their newborn doing this being blissfully unaware that most babies can). There is a lot of them randomly latching onto people's cheeks or chin or your nose if you put it close enough and they will absolutely aim for a father's (useless) nipple too.

I think it must be very difficult to structure a breastfeeding class and pitch it exactly right. This kind of approach feels to me as though she is coming at it from an angle of "Look how incredible our breastfeeding instincts can be - isn't breastfeeding such a wonderful thing you'd like to do?" That will be the right approach for some people. I think it was for me when I was pregnant for the first time. I loved learning about breastfeeding as this secret female knowledge that feels magical and powerful and that men had taken from us - it felt very feminist and primal, and perhaps because my own mum had breastfed me and my aunt breastfed her son and was pleased I wanted to breastfeed, it all fit well with my own worldview and support network. But the flip side of this is that if you do have it presented as this wonderful thing then it can be quite devastating if it doesn't work out. And perhaps if your own family experience isn't rooted in having found breastfeeding easy and wonderful, then it might make it feel a bit overly intense and put it on an unrealistic pedestal.

Some people will see breastfeeding as purely a practical method of feeding. Some are interested in it for the health benefits. Some don't really mind either way, some see it as a default, some curious but unfamiliar, some feel a bit weirded out by the whole thing. I think the whole "show how amazing it is" assumes that the audience is undecided about BF or isn't sure if it's worth it and need convincing, whereas I would imagine most NCT customers are already fairly likely to feel positive towards BF even if just in theory, and might not necessarily be overly sentimental about it, so probably do need more practical answers about what to expect, as you say.

I'm sure she won't be the only person at the support groups, and the peer support is nice even if the other leaders are a bit equally bonkers. She might possibly be better at doing responsive support rather than running classes, too - some people are much better at responding to a "live" situation in front of them and get all muddled when it comes to theory or starting with basics and can't work out what information is relevant and which is not. (I am sure I am probably one of these people, I have a tendency to overexplain everything!)

I remember being (helpfully) warned by a friend in my first pregnancy that NCT classes may not be very helpful, but you can end up with a good group of friends to get you through those tough early days. My friend was absolutely right. The NCT classes were a bit naff (and as a group we all had quite a good laugh afterwards about some of the things we were told), and the feeding class was particularly bad and formula feeding was cast in a particularly bad light (this was 12 years ago). It set up unrealistic expectations of breastfeeding which I think contributed to me actually failing to establish breastfeeding with my first. BUT the good thing to come out of NCT was that we ended up with a supportive close network of new mum friends which was invaluable in that first year! So in my mind I'm still grateful I did it, but I certainly just found the classes more of a bonding excercise with the group rather than anything particulalry useful!

I don’t know OP, I found alot of wishy washy answers from people who were meant to be professional on my motherhood journey! I got a 16 month old who I bathe daily sometimes twice is she runs her food in her hair! Our nanny was horrified said I should do it every few days and just use a flannel in between. Anyway rather than post here for the heaters consensus I asked Google and it said every other day unless they enjoy it then daily is fine so none the wiser. Is there a medical reason to not bathe them everyday??? I found the same nonsense with breastfeeding and weaning too. I didn’t have my baby on the the NHS nor did I breast feed but some of the mums in my groups (in the early days) were saying you do get help to sort the feeding out after the baby is born so don’t stress to much. Our NCT class was quite general and I always thought some of it was common sense and rest of it was mostly so mums had a support network afterwards. I just asked my husband what he took away from the NCT and he said, good cake and biscuits afterwards and the groegg!

Some people are prone to dry skin and bathing every day will exacerbate it. If that's not a problem for your LO, carry on!

That does sound dreadful.
Neither of my babies "crawled" up me, and I had two relatively straightforward births.
I often found breastfeeding advice pretty vague unhelpful though. I had a really tough time establishing BF with my first baby and I was mostly told to "preserve" and "you will get the hang of it eventually", etc. I did persevere, so I suppose they were right, but it was bloody hard!
The only decent advice I got was from a private lactation consultant, she at least was able to identify the issue that was making things to difficult.

Biologically, yes they can do this. Part of the reason your areolas darken is so the baby can see "the target" and apparently they smell just like the amniotic fluid. The stepping motion is also believed to be to support your womb to cramp down, as the baby presses on your abdomen.

In a western birth though, pretty unlikely to be given the opportunity/time/inclination to see it.

I used to teach NCT courses - I like to think I was very objective about birth options and how to feed but I definitely did train and work with some who were more "inclined" towards certain ideas....

So please don't tar the entire organisation with the "hippy" brush!! 😉

In all seriousness, part of the thing about the feeding session is that research suggests that the real fine detail about positioning etc gets forgotten if you try to do much antenatally so you are better off getting hands on support when there is an actual baby to apply it to but I agree it's totally unhelpful not to seem to give any guidance at all!! And Baby Friendly Initiative rules are such that you aren't allowed to give instructions on making bottles, you just have to refer to the info on the formula tin (though I always did the basics like what you have said about the water temp etc 🤐)

Our local community Infant Feeding team have peer support groups for after birth - hopefully your HV could direct you?

😂😂😂

If BF is really important to you OP, I would advise getting hold of the number of a really good lactation consultant (one qualified to spot tongue tie) and keep aside some money for a visit from them, if BF isn’t going easily for you.

In my days (7 years ago haha) I was told - not boiling, but 70 degrees?

I don’t know OP, I found alot of wishy washy answers from people who were meant to be professional on my motherhood journey

I became a lot more anxious after I had my first baby and I think some of it is due to having to rely on totally contradictory information being pulled out of arses when I genuinely didn't have a clue what to do. Being directed to book chapters interpreting types of crying, and tutted at because I had no idea I was supposed to be measuring how long I'd fed the baby for on day 1, the whole thing about midwives/HVs not being allowed to suggest formula unless you say you're going do it first, plus a rare BF condition no-one had ever told me about nor have I ever heard of a single professional telling anyone about it making me feel utterly crap.
Thank God I had DH to be baffled with me and help me feel like I wasn't the crazy one for not understanding it. Plus the one nice community midwife who took the time to help me with the latch.

Dame Edna Everage said she took inspiration and technique when breastfeeding her beloved son Kenny

From the song "Tie me kangaroo down sport".

The advice you were given was really poor. Get on another course. Must be a National Breastfeeding Org who can help.

@BertieBotts, you're much more charitable than me, and I do see it must be hard for her to pitch. But - honestly - the tone was so much more a condescending 'you poor silly little women' than 'wow, aren't instincts amazing!' On reflection, I suspect she'd been doing it too long, had got a bit jaded, and was just impatient with anything that wasn't BF support in the style she felt was right (and which NCT is moving away from).

I was smiling at you describing newborns latching onto everything - I remember DD latching onto my arm (and it was surprisingly painful!) and then letting go with an absolute howl of indigation!

And no, btw, I don't think you do over-explain. I think you're very good at clear explanations.

@Muffintopflop I think I've been lucky that the first NCT course I did, getting on for a decade ago when my ex was pregnant with DD, was pretty good. And the non-feeding classes from this one have been pretty good. It's lovely getting a circle of supportive peers as well, but I do think they can be informative as well. I think that's why I'm fed up this element was done so badly!

@NotSmallButFunSize - ha, yes, we had the thing about aureolas darkening - and the linea nigra! I didn't mean 'hippy' in a particularly negative sense; just that my impression of the NCT in general is that that's the sort of background it comes from. I can absolutely believe that the finer details would get lost, too. But I don't think most of our questions were super detailed. It was more just wanting to be able to have an open discussion and air some worries/thoughts, rather than being constantly put off. Not met my HV yet, but good idea, will ask her about peer support groups. Thank you!

@minipie that's a good idea, thanks. I'm fairly relaxed, I think - DD ended up mix fed; I wouldn't mind if this one didn't end up being BF let alone EBF. But it makes sense to have options for help, even so.

@aster10: yes, you're right, just below boiling - I just meant, not cold or warm (or a kettle that boiled an hour ago and is now stone cold - that was the thing we kept getting warned about the first time I was doing it, because I think there had been a lot of people assuming you boiled the water to kill bacteria in the water, so you could do a whole kettle-ful at a time and use it later).

@MegaMewtwo yay for your DH and the nice community midwife! I really related to your post - so remember that horrible feeling of utter confusion with a newborn, and the absolute wonder of any kind professional taking the time and trouble to be genuinely helpful.

I’m going to say something that will ban me for eternity and cause outrage and condemnation. I used (drumroll) …. Tommee Tippee Perfect Prep! There, I said it.The hell will break loose! I loved it and Iwould use it again and again.

@aster10 that made me laugh! I remember the vitriol over Tommee Tippee! I didn't have it first time around, but it's a space/cost thing for me. I hate clutter.

TBH if you do end up bottle feeding, what worked with DS2 who was on one bottle a day in tne end, we used to just make the bottle about an hour before it was needed and leave it on the counter. With hot water, but it meant by the time it was feeding time, it was pretty much body temperature. Before we switched to powder when we were only using half of a ready made carton/bottle, we stored that in the fridge with the date and time written on it because we would use it 24 hours later, which was fine apparently.

If I was bottle feeding full time, what I'd probably do would be straight after a feed, once baby is settled I'd go and make the next bottle straight away and keep it in the fridge so there was always one ready to go but nothing was hanging around being stored for ages. If you look at the NHS or WHO guidelines, they both say this is fine. It's second best to making up fresh but the convenience is SO much more, and the amount of time the milk is stored while made up is still minimised so it seems like a no brainer to me.

But everyone on our group was also very kind to me when I was having a postnatal freak out about DH not following the guidelines to the letter. The formula tubs in Germany also say you can make it up with 37 degree water. So I reckon there is a huge amount of swiss cheese theory written into the guidelines.

I know the guidance on bottle feeding - and we did various combinations of shelling out for ready-made bottles for emergencies/when we were shattered, and making and rapidly chilling bottles which could be kept in the fridge. It's just that at the very early stages, with a baby who is cluster feeding, you are inevitably going to be caught on the hop at times, and those will inevitably be the times when the baby is screaming while you will the boiling water to cool down!

Reading this back makes me realise how very little DD slept when she was very tiny. Hopefully this baby will be more in the average category.

I also think we were super careful because she'd been ill. The US guidelines from the FDA talk about doing different things with vulnerable babies versus non-vulnerable, which makes sense - I do think you use your common sense and I would be doing very different things with, eg., a newborn like DD was, who was losing weight and recovering from sepsis, and a thumping great big 11 month old who is robust and probably already licking worse things off the floor.

WTF is this ‘crawling up’ business anyway? I’m from an era when there were no BF sessions for expectant mothers - for the first baby just assumed that I’d hold it close asap, and it’d latch on. Which is exactly what happened. 2nd time the same - and I’d add, 2 non straightforward births.

Was the woman suggesting that the new mother just lies there while the baby makes its way up?? How bizarre!

My question exactly!!!! A newborn baby cannot bloody crawl!