Women’s hour - birdwatching. WTF is wrong with some women?

[crawlingovertheline]

Caveat first - I know we’re all different but COME ON women!!
The feature was about a woman birdwatcher called Lucy. She was encouraging other women into bird watching (wonderful).
However, as she was explaining her backstory, she explained how “scary” and “terrifying” and “intimidating” it was….picking up some binoculars. (Yes, you read it right, these were her words) and it was only after two (male) birdwatchers helped her that she felt confident enough going birdwatching.

Now listen, I know some people are not confident but REALLY? REALLY???? You can’t pick up some BINOCULARS without help from a man? (Two men)

Women have fought in wars, we give birth, some fight and strive to survive, are women so weak now we can’t have agency over taking up a completely risk free hobby?

What on earth is happening?
YABU - maybe it really was scary, terrifying and intimidating
YANBU - this is disappointing, come on girl wake up!

I've just listened to the programme and think there has a deliberate bit of rage baiting going on here from Mumsnetters!

The interviewer said that at 20 years old it was really scary to pick up binoculars and intimidating to enter the birdwatching world. She also said that there were more female birding groups out there now making for a more welcoming environment for women. Then she said she was lucky enough to be welcomed in by a group of really nice men.

So basically, back in the early 2010's she was youngish, wanted to get involved in a world that she had found to be male dominated and therefore found that a bit intimidating. Then she met some nice men who weren't d!cks and were helpful.

She didn't actually mean that binoculars were scary, she meant entering a domain she wasn't part of, full of people she didn't know, in an area she wasn't overly confident about her knowledge in, was scary and intimidating....but I think you knew that and decided to slate her anyway.

Take a read of her column here: Lucy McRobert: imposter syndrome and you'll find she's very aware of her own insecurities and is working hard to overcome them.

Well done Mumsnetters, you firmly put her in her place!

Er no. Many 20 year olds would have historically gone backpacking around the world. I know one that rowed the Atlantic. Some are in the army. Some are in med school getting their hands into cadeavers. Some climbed Everest. THOSE situations might be described as terrifying or scary or intimidating. She was going birdwatching and then needed two men to show her the ropes. It was pathetic, being tolled out as heroism.

Amen

some people just have a scared disposition. I don't think it is very feminist to make fun of them

I don't think there is anything wrong with them, and there should be place for all sorts of people in this world

Yes, that's my experience.

There is a whole and very healthy industry out there where people are being paid to promote the myth that women are the eternal victims and intimidated by their own shadows.
They get a lot of airplay on Woman's Hour.
'Tis v annoying.

I don't understand your post, it is looking at birds in their own environment. Simple as it gets really.

@Teakettletrio
Out of all the posts on this thread, you say I have the sour attitude? I’m agreeing with the concept that it can be challenging to take up a hobby where you may feel excluded. And if you want to push through that excluded feeling in your spare time, more power to you. Equally if you find somewhere where you feel welcome and fulfilled, go with that. Nothing sour about that.

I apologise if 'sour' felt like a personal jab. What I meant was that your total refusal to engage seems to dismiss the value of what those women are building. Many people find genuine community and pride in those traditions; viewing it strictly through the lens of sexism feels like a very glass-half-empty way to look at a voluntary social group.

I think we just see the 'Ladies Society' differently. You see a relic of sexism; I see women using their agency to support their community. I used the word 'sour' because I felt your stance was dismissive of their autonomy, but I could have phrased that more constructively."

I don't think it's very feminist of women to squeak, "Oh no, I couldn't possibly go to/do/speak to x/y/z without my husband!" Don't be such a wet lettuce.

They were talking about volunteering on heritage railways. Not birdwatching.

I think we may be reading different things into what she said and how the programme presented it.

Lucy found starting birding scary and intimidating and overcame her fears thanks to some supportive men. She has since successfully made it part of her career. At no point did anyone describe her as heroic, and the presenter didn't engage in that narrative.

I'm also not disputing that other 20 year old females do what society would consider to be infinitely more scary, intimidating and heroic, but not everyone has the disposition or been given the coping skills in their life to do those things, and everyone's fear point sits differently.

Bearing in mind the demographic of Women's Hour is predominantly (approx 75%) aged 55+, with a significant portion over 65 - it is highly likely many listeners will have had to get past male gatekeepers at some point in their life and recognise her feelings.

On the plus side, my daughter has learnt a new put down, and is still chuckling about 'wet lettuce.'

Exactly! I see men volunteering/making tea and coffee as often as I see women doing it. Some people love to make something out of nothing!

This. ^

I've done many things people consider scary, including paragliding, backpacking by myself around the world, white water rafting, trekking and climbing mountains, but I'm still but comfortable standing up to a man who is patronizing me, mansplanning me or talking over me. In the article that @TheRedBear posted it's exactly what she describes:

I don't think any man ever said "you're stupid" to me. But there were times I was blanked when I asked a question about birds. Or when I would get on to a bird first, point it out and be ignored. Or when I had to miss a bird or leave the field quickly to resume mum duties. I've been patronised in bird hides by strangers. I've been made to feel guilty for seeing a bird that someone else hadn't, as if I didn't deserve it. On occasion, I was scoffed at for not knowing something. I was advised not to participate in certain events in case I showed myself up. I've been criticised online and via email for writing this column.

How very dramatic. Most people just pick up a pair of bins and get on with it. I can't help feeling that if she just talked less 3/4 of those issues would disappear immediately.

I would have said twitching was male-dominated but not normal birdwatching. Very strange.

I did camp america on my own at 20 having never been abroad before. Binoculars, I scoff at them!

Doesn't it only exist because those women will still do the pandering?

Ah, that makes much more sense :)

I've been trying to work out why this thread as got me a little bit ragey, it's quite unlike me as I normally read, maybe comment and then jog on.

I can't comment for others posting, but I know I like to research before I do post anything. I listened to the programme and heard what was said in context, then did research on Lucy McRobert to gauge extra context as to why she may have felt the way she did.

As such I can't help but feel that this thread shows a lack of empathy towards someone else's experience and am downright disappointed someone has said she should talk less...really? That's the argument you're going for? She should talk less?

I've just listened to a brilliant Radio 4 programme on World's Strongest Women athletes which made me both saddened by how awful some people can be, to being uplifted by the amazing way women can support other women.

I highly recommend it

This thread is baffling me bcz I started birdwatching when I took a class in the 1980s. I am female, there were lots of females taking the class. The first English house I lodged in (early 90s), I found the vacancy bcz of birdwatcher mutual interests. I never felt odd for being female.

In the UK I perceive equal numbers of male & female birdwatchers who casually watch, the ones you encounter in random hides on a reserve. The hardcore Twitchers (who keep lists and go on dedicated holidays and get up at 3am to drive 200 miles etc.) are mostly male BUT they are a noticeable minority of birdwatchers. They also tend to be childfree. Nowadays the Twitchers often travel with partners, there are hetero couples on the Twitcher holidays.

Can't be bothered to find the WH episode.

ps: I have another hobby that is about 82% male most of the time, also I am old enough to be mom or Gran of most others. We only care about our shared hobby, not our own age, sex or gender.

I heard it and she was talking about it being a male dominated hobby. That is intimidating- she has a point, which I think you’ve misunderstood or misled on

Hey, I also found it scary, terrifying and intimidating starting a new hobby but now I have an award winning collection of toilet brushes.

I obviously haven’t said so to DH but if I wanted a new partner, I’d probably be taking my samdwiches and spending days at local RSPB places or Slimbridge.
Some bird watchers don’t interact but mainly they are a very friendly bunch, happy to chip in if you have got an ID wrong, show you a favoured flight path or a rarity the have their scope trained on.