parkrun defending their position

[Funtime2]

I used to be a parkrunner and do not understand how parkrun can defend their position of allowing trans identfying males into the female category.

I read that 280 published race winners in the female category are actually men identifying as women. How is this fair to women? Some women don’t care about this but some women do, just as some men take it as a race and care about the rankings and some men don’t

The other option of course is they could stop the timing, stop recording winners and records?

AIBU to genuinely not understand why parkrun claim not to be a race when they time the runners, publish times by category, rank times and runners, and have record holders by category.

Because you can have a group for women and a group for trans women and the two groups can do everything together.

I somehow don’t think that is going to wash!

There are rankings, information on performance in your category - % of people in the category your results beat, published times and records.

For men the data is accurate.

Yes, they are particular anti women.

Apparently there is another guy (among the many) who is about to celebrate his 100th ‘win’ in the women’s category naturally.

Self respect and fair play don’t seem to feature for some men.

An indomitable Olympian called Mara Yamauchi keeps track of the numbers and extent of the misogyny on her X account if you want to find out more.

I totally do. What that group can not say is that it’s a group for women. It’s why girl guides and the WI had to exclude males. They could have changed their name and charitable articles but chose the easier route. They could have become the People’s Institute and kept males in, but it would have had to be any male who wanted to join, with or without a trans identity. It was their choice. It is strange they chose not to go down the name change route.

The recording of records within sex categories and other categories makes it competitive.

There is no way around this fact despite park run's constant repetition of saying 'it is not competitive'. Their actions make this a falsehood.

Therefore, yes, it does have something to do with women's rights and girl's rights. Recording any male person as holding any record that should go to a female athletes is a direct violation of the right for those female athletes to have fair competition.

If it is not a competition, parkrun needs to stop recording and publishing of records.

They can claim it’s not a competition until they are blue in the face. Until they remove the elements that make it a competition, they will be wrong.

Do you generally believe that words have meanings?

But-but-but 'It's NoT a ComPeTitiOn!' Bs it ain't. If it has entry categories and publicly listed timings and placings, it is a competition! People need to stop lying about it. It's a competition and we all know it!

And again.

It is competitive by nature if any course records are noted. Certainly it is competitive if the course records are published.

Just denying it is a competition while this activity is recorded and published doesn't change the fact that very activity makes it 'competitive.'

That’s lovely for you.

My proposal is that all people who are not bothered about the competitive element and those who don’t want to compete fairly (ie registered as their correct sex, age, whatever) opt out of the published timings and rankings and just run.

Then the trans people can run happily with all you non competitive people and the competitive people get some nice accurate rankings for their sex and age.
are you up for that?

Would you opt out of rankings to support trans people? I’m sure they’d be very grateful.

To compete against yourself. To better your personal best.
So get rid of publishing them all together then.
That'd be ok. Just send us an email with our own times on.
Although I bet there'd still be people whinging and moaning.

@IAmBeaIDrinkTea @MummyWillow1
You are right that Parkrun is a fun run / inclusive etc but it is also competitive for many of the front runners.
The issue is that because, at population level, males are faster than females, females don't have true equality if their times aren't ranked within a sex-based category.
So imagine a teen girl runs a Parkrun amd achieves '1st lady' and that her times are also good enough to get into the London mini marathon (won in the past by lots of now famous runners). If a boy were to run as a girl and beat her, she could lose that accolade/place.
You may not care about competition for you. But it is important for some people; and girls have just as much right as boys to the accolades and race entries that Parkrun can give them.
And the front runners (as long as they're not aggressive pushy shouty twats - sadly that does happen) have as much right to run Parkrun and get a good time and accolades (as my DD would), as I have to lug myself round at the back.
Things can't always be about males, even if they're trans-identified. Girls matter too.

Why not? There aren’t any justification requirements for associations (unlike for charities and single-sex provisions). It probably wasn’t intended to be used in this way when the legislation was drafted but I agree with previous posters that it is otherwise overly restrictive on people’s freedom to do what they want.

Ok.

You can’t start a public group for women and exclude men unless it meets a certain criteria. That criteria is, the exclusion of men should be a proportionate means to a legitimate aim.

So, at parkrun, the very reason to have categories for men and women is so biological women have the same opportunities as biological men. To race and compare their times should they want to just as the men do. It’s equity built on biological difference.

With that being the criteria how could it ever possibly be fair to include some men (trans women) and not other men. What about short men, should they race with women? Why have a category for women and include some men.
If you allow one group of men into a category segregated for women to meet a legitmate aim then that criteria is no longer valid.

So, then we end up saying well let's get rid of the female category and everyone can just run in one mixed sex timed race. Bang goes any equity for women to have the same opportunities as men.

Some women don’t care about their times but some do, men have that opportunity and so should women.

Trans women have every single right that every single other man has, why do they want more rights than other men.

It’s so weird when people just keep baldly insisting that black is white or white is black just because they say so.

I guess it shows that they can’t justify their position and the unfairness at all and just have to resort to a blatant untruth. It is strange to see though.

There are specific provisions in the Equality Act for sports and single-sex provision. I am talking about associations

I was responding to the general point someone made about freedom to form groups, it wasn’t related to park run.

You can’t see beyond your own perspective of parkrun.

It’s really closed minded that you can’t understand that for SOME women they would like the same opportunity that men have at parkrun.

You are really using the word “inclusive” to describe someone who is uber competitive in a fun run? 😆

That last sentence goes to the crux of the issue. Trans identified males can race off at the front, pootle at the back, or meander in the middle; just like every other human running Parkrun.
What is not fair is if they categorise themselves as female.

You have outed yourself entirely.

Do you not think women who would like to have the same opportunity as men, to win and compare times, should be included because yo are too closed minded to see that not everyone uses parkrun the same way.

It started as a time trial.

There aren’t any justification requirements for associations

I’m not sure what you mean there, since you’d previously stated “Because you can have a group for women and a group for trans women” do you mean they don’t have to justify their discrimination against male people/male people who aren’t trans/trans people who aren’t male?
Unless they keep the membership numbers (presumably for the two groups as a whole, otherwise they’re basically just trying it on, for want of a better phrase) under 25, then yes, there are still requirements, they’re not free to discriminate at will.

”Part 7 of the Equality Act 2010 states that an association is any group that has at least 25 members and regulates admission using rules and a selection process.”

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/equality-act-2010-guiding-principles-associations

Sorry I forgot to add the part about discrimination

”1. Know the law
It is unlawful for an association to discriminate against or victimise its members, associates and guests, also its prospective members, associates and guests, because of the following protected characteristics:
age
disability
gender reassignment
pregnancy and maternity
race
religion or belief
sex
sexual orientation”

The minute parkrun accepted £5m of public funding is the minute they have to obey the law and kick the blokes out of the women’s results. If they want to continue to act unlawfully they need to stop taking public money. It’s that simple!

This guidance is incomplete. Schedule 16 of the Equality Act provides exemptions for organisations. It allows you to restrict membership on the basis of protected characteristics. You can’t then discriminate once people are members.

I’m a parkrun event Director and I think whilst Park events are wonderful the people at the top of HQ are a bunch of . I’m hoping that momentum will take over and sooner or later they’ll have to change.