parkrun defending their position

[Funtime2]

I used to be a parkrunner and do not understand how parkrun can defend their position of allowing trans identfying males into the female category.

I read that 280 published race winners in the female category are actually men identifying as women. How is this fair to women? Some women don’t care about this but some women do, just as some men take it as a race and care about the rankings and some men don’t

The other option of course is they could stop the timing, stop recording winners and records?

AIBU to genuinely not understand why parkrun claim not to be a race when they time the runners, publish times by category, rank times and runners, and have record holders by category.

How? The community element is still there! How does parkrun taking timings remove the 'community element'? I'd really love you to explain that

I mean, I literally did. I said that some want a race that's community based, emphasis on everyone being able to join in, without telling newcomers who may have never done it before and feeling nervous that they have to have a stopwatch to time themselves or whatever.
It's just extra levels of stress towards what's supposed to be a chilled community race in the park.
So many reasons people could be put off. Not to mention the volunteers having this level of crap thrown at them.

As a human, being 'barcode scanned' is pretty darned insulting

WTF 😂

Parkrun times can be used as qualifying times for other events. If these spaces are given out to men who pretend to be women based on their Parkrun times, actual women lose out. Because how can women compete with Parkrun times set by men become the baseline for women?

But let's not upset the men. Especially the men who get really upset when their cheating is pointed out to them. Because "Who cares!!!!"

I'm being pragmatic. If someone somewhere is competing as a woman even though they were born a man, that dilutes the results. Same if someone is competing in the wrong age group. There's nothing you can do about that because age gradings are international but it is a tiny number of people. It really is completely different to having an Identifiable person who has taken part as a woman when they shouldn't have done.

However, I think age gradings are based on elite performances and at least they will now be checked.

'I mean', you literally didn't. Why does a community event need volunteers with a stopwatch? It's just a run around the park. No timings needed. Volunteers can cheer on people. They don't need to record timings. So you 'literally' have not explained anything except you think community elements only exist if there is a stopwatch. Nothing else matters.

I don't want to be 'barcoded'. Do you understand basic communication?

Personally I think if someone thinks a course record is dodgy they should be able to tell parkrun HQ who can remove the record and reinstate the old one.

And no, this doesn't mean "butch" women will have their course records taken away from them. Or indeed men who look younger than they are! If you care about your course record you would let them have your birth certificate. Although I thought if you had a GRC your birth certificate gets changed as well? An

But again, it would only work in GB and not in many other territories.

People go on about proof and checking genitals and all sorts of emotional guff but in reality sex and age aren't checked at races either (maybe for GFA for marathons where they ask for evidence of age?)

No, because parkrun was always a timed, recorded and categorised event.

Because parkrun was set up as a timed event.

It's so annoying when people go on about the history of parkrun who have no idea.

I wasn't one of the first parkrunners, I didn't discover it until 2010 but being told to suck eggs is MOST irritating.

but being told to suck eggs is MOST irritating.

Yes, it is irritating for women to be told that.

It doesn't need it, but that's what parkrun is - a free, timed run. You're arguing for something that's entirely different which is completely fine - people can set up a non-timed community run - but it doesn't really have any bearing over the parkrun biological sex topic because parkrun IS a timed and categorised community event and always has been (just not with exact timings, much to the disgruntlement of some, because it's just a free community event!)

Indeed. If you are a man, parkrun is for you.

If you are a woman, well you have to go and find a race (where they also don't check age or sex, other, than in certain limited circumstances like the good for age categories at certain marathons).

Sorry but you are incorrect.
Parkrun times are how London boroughs and many regions choose the children and young people who will run in the mini marathon.
The latter is an event which is hugely important both to up and coming athletes, and to kids who would otherwise never get to take part in that kind of event. And girls have as much right as boys to feel that society values and rewards their efforts.

How would you feel about having an RFID chip transceiver strapped round your ankle or embedded in your race bib? Because it serves exactly the same purpose. That's literally how mass start races are timed these days - means everyone gets a time rather than just the top 10 like in the old days.

The barcode is just a much more cost effective (and less accurate) version that you can print off at home - you just hand it to a marshall as you cross the finish line, they scan it, and the timing software does the rest.

Er trans age is definitely a thing you sweet summer child. 😬

Parkrun also feeds through to power of ten to determine eligibility for other events.

There's a time and a place for ideology and Park Run isn't it.

Catching up, and caught my breath at this. The irony's breathtaking.

I made a post a looong time ago about in ParkRunthreadtime 😅 about how one thing that quite disturbs me is how, where trans "inclusion" is concerned, those people standing up for what is, fundamentally, a fairly controversial value system - an ideology, you could say - often don't even seem to recognise (or aren't prepared to acknowledge?) that this is what it is.

Those of use arguing for sex-based registration have a value system.

So do those of you arguing for gender-based registration.

(You could call both perspectives an ideology, although I think this is somewhat provocative and potentially problematic for various reasons).

But, whatever.

My point is that arguing your position in this thread without even realising that "trans inclusion" of the kind we're discussion isn't automatically, by definition or default, neutral / ethical / a blank slate etc... Well, I'd say it I'd say exposes the weakness of that position. It assumes the "natural" invalidity of opposing arguments (they're political, an ideology, biased etc.) without 1) recognising that so are your own! and 2) bengaging with the strengths and weaknesses of these two sides.

Hyperbole, insults and barbed comments reflect a similar trend (eg. in just the last few pages I'm on, JHound's offensive "Why are you whining about this?"... and - ETA, as I crawl down p23 - disappearing when difficult questions are asked and apparent contradictions in thinking challenged).

They use your personal scores which has zilch to do with where you came compared to anybody else.

Parkrun is not a competition.

which has zilch to do with where you came compared to anybody else

Yes. Not sure why this is so hard to understand

They don’t need to publish any times for a free timed event.
They don’t need to ask and publish people’s gender for a free times event
They don’t need to ask people’s age for a free timed event.

They don’t, but they do. That’s what parkrun does. And if they’re publishing a gender split, it should be accurately represented

Wow, 1100 people agree that parkrun are wrong!

Thanks, this thread is enlightening

Race: a competition between people, animals, vehicles, etc., to determine which one is the fastest : a contest of speed (Merriam Webster) / a competition in which all the competitors try to be the fastest and to finish first (Cambridge). Example: "what's supposed to be a chilled community race in the park" (above)

And apologies for the following. Silly - but fun to write...!

'Do you remember,' O'Brien went on, 'writing in your diary, "Freedom is the freedom to say that Parkrun is a race"?'

'Yes,' said Winston.

In one hand, O'Brien held up a placard, with a list of times ranked by place. In the other was a newspaper article, congratulating a woman on a new record.

'What does this information show, Winston?'

'Competition rankings. A winner.'

'And if the party says that this is evidence that there is, in fact, no competitive element -- that it's all just about fun? Then what does this show'?

'Well... rankings. Because it's the competitive tension of anticipating where you finish that makes it so satisfying for lots of people: that makes it a r-'

The word ended in a gasp of pain. The needle of the dial had shot up to fifty-five. The sweat had sprung out all over Winston's body. The air tore into his lungs and issued again in deep groans which even by clenching his teeth he could not stop. O'Brien watched him, the posters still held up. He drew back the lever. This time the pain was only slightly eased.

'Is it competitive, Winston?'

'Yes.'

The needle went up to sixty.

'Really, Winston? Really?!'

'Yes! Yes! What else can I say? Yes!'

The needle must have risen again, but he did not look at it. The heavy, stern face and the four fingers filled his vision. The images stood up before his eyes like pillars, enormous, blurry, and seeming to vibrate, but unmistakably lists of relative times, ranked one against one the other, with the words "first finisher" at the top.

'What does this show, Winston?'

'Who was first! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? RANKINGS! Positions in a race!'

'REALLY, Winston?' O'Brien's fingers hovered over the highest number on the dial, which was an appropriately impossible Spinal Tap 11...

'Ok! Ok, ok! It's a fun run! And the rankings don't make it competitive, they make it boring, people hate them - HATE them!... Nonono, NO, SORRY, OK, WAIT! WAIT! People... er... love them... because... because... because it shows how fast they've gone...!" The words tumbled from Winston as he grasped a brief train of logical thought, but then he saw his tormentor's face, and changed track.

"But... but... that's NOT how they use them, really! Because..."

Here, again, he found a route through the horror, and began to speak more rapidly: "It's NOT a race because everyone will only check their OWN number. In fact, we could even black out all the other numbers - we SHOULD, really... So - NONONO! WaitpleasewaitI'msorryI'm sorryIgetitIdo! I know, I know..."

His mind raced ahead, trying to anticipate his captor's next Moebius inversion of illogicality, and, victorious, finding it: "Because, if we did that then no one would turn up! So we DO need them! We DO! Because otherwise" (confident now in his own absurdity - that he was at last thinking the way O'Brien wanted, he ploughed on), "Because otherwise, everyone would have to buy a hi-tech sportswatch. EVERYONE!"

He looked at O'Brien, hopeful that this last irrational claim in a world of smartphones and indifference to rankings would save him... And blanched as he saw the man's face. New panicked words tumbled out of him: "But timings DON'T matter anyway! At all! AT ALL!

I don't know what you want, O'Brien. I don't know what you want!

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU WAAAAAANT!!!'

Thanks for replying, though I found it a bit hard to follow (probably my fault: rapid thread). I try to respond below, but apologies if it includes misunderstandings of your argument.

I'm being pragmatic. If someone somewhere is competing as a woman even though they were born a man, that dilutes the results.

Agree.

Same if someone is competing in the wrong age group. There's nothing you can do about that

This seems to be the policing argument again, which seems to assume the need for 100% rule-breaker elimination in a way no other law or rule does... Two nice points PPs made earlier about this were: how nihilistic it feels (people will break the rules, so why bother?) and the rape conviction analogy (thank goodness, despite the fact hardly any make it to court, it's stil illegal). Sorry if this isn't what you meant, though.

because age gradings are international but it is a tiny number of people.

Applying the "tiny umber of people" argument to sex...

If you mean in Parkrun, I think PPs have cited well over 200, with every single one of those affecting multiple women. If you mean in recognised competitions, see https://www.shewon.org/. If you mean in the other direction, in schools and community sports... honestly, the disappointment and devastation of the many individual girls and their parents that I've read about and listened to tin recent years are more than enough for me to want there to be a clear line drawn. Any one is upsetting to me.

It really is completely different to having an Identifiable person who has taken part as a woman when they shouldn't have done. However, I think age gradings are based on elite performances and at least they will now be checked.

I worry again by this point I may have misunderstood your argument! I'm not following which (again!) I think is my fault! Getting tired. Sorry...

Am now thinking I definitely misunderstood you, as we seem to be coming at it from the same place. Sorry! Less messing with Orwell and more careful reading in future.